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Thread: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    And from one renowed LC I heard that baby that better latches to firm breast, rather than soft one, might have weak oral muscles or/and need certain flow to organise his swallowing.
    This thing about flow I am pretty certain can relate to my son.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    I do not think wanting to breastfeed a child is ever selfish. Many moms think this when there are difficulties, but it does not make sense to me. While there are breastfeeding difficulties of such severity that baby needs to be bottle fed part time or possibly even fully, because otherwise baby does not get enough to eat. But even in those situations, the act of breastfeeding itself does not cause any harm, and study after study shows it is beneficial. So how is doing this selfish? I just do not understand. I also have no idea how anyone can 'force' a baby to breastfeed. Bottles certainly can be forced on a baby, but if a baby truly does not want to nurse, they would not nurse no matter what one did to encourage nursing.

    I am afraid I just do not understand the jumping around concern. I do not have much experience bottle feeding, but what little I have done, I recall babies this age moved a lot when being fed. I have nursed three children through this age and they also moved around a lot when nursing...this is just a very mobile age, baby is discovering all the ways they can move. Or are you talking about some kind of involuntary movement? Like a twitch?

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    Can I use sippy cup instead of bottle? He will be 6m in few days.
    He nursed 2 times awake today. However he was sleepy so rubbing and scratching his face took place instead of nursing. Also, despite my supply significantly going down, he still moves away from let down reflex.

    And about moving around all the time. I can only guess that movement is not obstacle for successful nursing for most kids. But to me it seems like my boy becames "dialed up" by nursing, not opposite.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    Oh so you think baby is stimulated by nursing, but relaxed by bottles? Interesting.

    This may be entirely accurate- what some evidence seems to suggest is that nursing at the breast IS very different, cognitively, then bottles. This is why nursing specifically (rather than the milk) can be said to act positively on brain development. There is very clear evidence that nursing promotes the "normal" physical development of the head, face, jaw area...So I while I think it could be said (with qualifiers) that nursing is, possibly, more stimulating to the mind, for sure, nursing is more complicated (involves more activity overall) than drinking from a bottle and requires the engagement of more muscles.

    But, is it really a problem if baby is dialed up by nursing? I thought you were trying to nurse baby when baby was awake?

    But if nursing is over stimulating- I would wonder if there is some sensory processing issue in play. As I mentioned early on in this thread, this is one of the suspected causes of the "nursing only in sleep" phenomenon that happens with some babies.

    Yes of course if baby prefers or you prefer, you can use something besides a bottle to feed a baby at any age. But just as with a bottle, it is important for caregiver to help control the vessel and regulate flow before the child is able to do it themselves, and that would not come until much later. In other words you (obviously) cannot just hand the baby a cup. But with adult helping, you can even give baby milk in an open cup. Sippy cups are designed to make cup feeding less messy and to (possibly) would require less caregiver engagement in the process.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    I think I can not do this anymore. For months focus of my life has been his naps and sleeping so that he would nurse. And as he is older he is sleeping less and resisting more and more to sleep.
    I have also a 3y old son at thome. He needs mom also who is not focused only on his brother's sleep, pumping and wathching on clock.
    My younger son got 6m of exclusive breastfeeding from me. I can not have his eating as my responsibility anymore. He will have formula and bottle. And it will be up to him how much and when he will eat.
    Last edited by @llli*tonica.mom; November 4th, 2017 at 06:14 AM.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    Ok tonica, I hope our conversation here has been helpful for you in coming to a decision that you feel at peace with. I am going to repeat something I said early on in the thread: "I have found that when parenting issues arise, a responsive parent will try one thing, and if it does not work, or only works for a while, or is too much effort for too little reward, or for whatever reason not working out, then you try something else. Too long parents have been told that parenting is a one size fits all thing, with hard and fast rules that you will screw up your kid if you don't follow. But this is not true. Parenting involves at a minimum the needs, wants, quirks, personalities etc. of two human beings and often more. This means every situation is entirely unique with its own set of joys and frustrations."

    I have learned this lesson again this week, talking to other parents about our teenagers who are going through some fairly serious teenage problems. Each of us approaches our respective situations very differently, but each with love and respect for our child as well as thinking about the health and wellness of our families. At one point I caught myself thinking "I would never do what that mom did" (basically some major tough love) but then I realized that in her particular situation? Yeah, I would at least very seriously have considered it!

    Your children are blessed to have such a caring and proactive mom. I wish I could tell you this will be the last great battle as a parent you will have to endure, but unfortunately it will not be. However I believe that what I leaned from early-on struggles has helped me become a better- if always, always very imperfect- parent, and in many ways, a better person overall. I am not sure it is accurate to say I am happy I had those struggles, but I do view them in hindsight with some positivity. I hope that at some point, you can look back on your difficult feeding experiences with your babies the same way.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    Today he nursed few times when awake. But his latch is terrible. You can hear him in another room clicking and swallowing air. I went to so many different LCs about that latch and no one could help us. Some say as long he us gaining weight all is fine, some say older babies do not have to have deep latch, some say "I do not know". How is that possible???

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    Clicking and swallowing air does not necessarily mean a baby has a bad latch. A bad latch means a latch that is making breastfeeding...well, bad. Meaning, nursing hurts or injures mom or baby cannot get enough milk when nursing. Swallowing a little air never hurt anyone, everyone swallows air frequently.

    So I would agree that as long as baby is gaining normally and nursing does not hurt, latch is fine.

    Now, in your baby's case, I wonder if this physical issue baby has (that baby will just grow out of) may make it more likely baby swallows air when nursing. But even in that case, does that mean baby has a "terrible latch?" I would not say that. But then, I am not there. Maybe you are talking about something more extreme than I am imagining. On the other hand, since my opinion agrees with the professionals who have actually seen you and your baby "in action," I feel fairly confident in that assessment.

    Also it is absolutely true that as a baby gets older, many do not "need" as deep a latch as before. This is true for a variety of reasons.

    But here is the kicker- many babies NEVER need a so called "deep" latch! This is a mistake many make, even professionals. Breasts and babies come in all shapes and sizes, so there is not any one "good" way for a baby to latch.

    Here is where the confusion started. Many lactation consultants found that encouraging a deep latch was an effective technique for helping when nursing is hurting mom or baby is not getting enough to eat. And some found that specifically, an asymmetric latch (this is mostly from Dr. Jack Newman) helped a baby get a more comfortable, so called "better" latch. But whether you call it deep latch or asymmetric latch, in fact these are only some techniques for helping when there is a breastfeeding problem, and NOT a requirement for a "GOOD" latch.

    My oldest child was born with a very small, very narrow mouth, a recessed chin (he was a little premature) and mild tongue tie causing him to have a very hard time latching and when he did manage to latch, he hurt me terribly. The tongue tie was not diagnosed until later, and in those days no one around here treated tongue tie in infants anyway. So we had to figure it out. And with the help of two lactation consultants, we did. After about 6 weeks he was able to latch without tearing me up. But he for sure swallowed lots of air, and he spit up a ton for months. It was a mess, but he was gaining fine and it did not hurt him in any way.

    Second baby seemed to be doing great from the start, no pain for me and he was clearly getting plenty of milk once my milk came in. But he clicked VERY loudly when he nursed. People could hear it across the room. By then I was involved in La Leche League and knew several lactation consultants and LLL Leaders, and several of them suggested we get him checked for tongue tie or other issues. But I never did. You know why? Because nursing was entirely comfortable and he was gaining great. Consequently, I knew his latch was fine.

    Yes of course, clicking or swallowing air can come along with latch issues, but in those cases, they will not be the only symptoms. If all that is happening is clicking and/or air swallowing, in my opinion those do not indicate there is any problem, at least nothing serious enough to worry about.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    Thank you for the clarification about the issue of deep latch.
    At this point it feels to me that he is hanging on nipple. And he is biting me with gums. Before let down, during and after let down reflex. I am afraid to do anything about that since this is our first day of only nursing, no bottle, no pumping. It seems he is doing acrobacy during nursing with his gums. Like I am his chew toy (he started to do that on bottle).
    And yes, he is so much kicking around with his arms and legs. It seems to me if only he could settle for a minute (that is how much our nursing session lasts), whole thing would be go smoother.
    Do you think it is teething thing that biting or something with the flow?
    I forgot to say, he is nursing lying down flat or little bit proped up on his back. And I just lean over him.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    I forgot to say, he is nursing lying down flat or little bit proped up on his back. And I just lean over him.
    Well, this would tend to be a very uncomfortable nursing position for both mom and baby. Gravity would be pulling baby off the nipple, so that would tend to cause a shallow latch. Also, no one can drink easily when lying flat on their back.

    To get technical, what you are doing is called "dorsal" (back pressure/support) positioning, and this has been proven to be a position humans do not naturally nurse in. Humans, like most other land mammals (excepting grazing mammals) are "ventral" nursers, meaning that human babies appear to nurse better when they are supported/have slight pressure on their front. Usually moms are told to support baby with their own bodies (front to front) but if that is not working, baby can be supported on their front with something else. (Cushions, etc) Think about how litters of kittens or puppies nurse, and you will have an example of a "ventral" nurser who is not "front to front" with mom- rather they are front to the bedding or other surface that momma is lying on, and raising their heads and paws to mom. Of course if you see a primate nursing, their baby usually IS front to front, but that does not mean that is what you always have to do if that is not working. But what research shows very clearly is that when nursed in a dorsal position, human babies feel unsettled and not properly oriented in space, and tend to squirm and flail and repeatedly pop off the breast, and "slip off" to have a very shallow latch. But when they are nursed when supported on their front, or on their side but with front contact to mom, they are oriented properly, feel secure and consequently, tend to be more relaxed and settled while nursing. This is the science behind the ideas of "laid back positioning" aka "natural breastfeeding" aka "biological nurturing" - ideas I assume your breastfeeding helpers have told you about?

    I assume this dorsal (on the back) nursing position is the only position your baby will tolerate? Did your LCs show you other positions or are you trying other positions, but baby will just not tolerate them? If your baby cannot tolerate what we know is a biologically normal nursing position, then I am back to wondering if there is some physical issue or sensory issue going on.

    If you are not able to go the whole day without pumping or bottles, that is ok. Often when working on weaning off pump and bottles it is best to move slowly. The last thing you want right now is to have baby injure you with a poor latch.
    Last edited by @llli*maddieb; November 5th, 2017 at 02:50 PM.

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