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Thread: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    I think you are facing a difficult situation that you are not in any way alone in facing. For many reasons, some babies seem to not want to nurse or will only nurse in certain situations. It is called many names- nipple confusion, bottle preference, breast aversion, nursing strike, distraction-I think all of these basically refer to what boils down to the same phenomenon, and none are 100% adequate as a description because the individual circumstances vary so much. Complicating matters are the many cases where a mom thinks a baby is not nursing as often or as "well" as baby should, when in fact all is well. Such cases cloud the issue because of course if all is actually well, no amount of intervention is going to "fix" it- in fact in that case, interventions could cause an actual problem. So accumulating reliable data in this area, so that specific fixes can be "tested" has simply never happened and may never happen. But for sure, this problem of a baby for some mysterious reason not nursing or "under nursing" is a real thing.

    There are many, many causes we have identified, many times these causes are avoidable, sometimes not, but looking back, at least we can make a good guess on the why. But we have not identified ALL the causes, and sometimes the why is just not knowable.

    If you know that your baby is capable of nursing and transferring milk at the breast, I would side a bit with the LC's advice, in fact I suggested something similar above as one option to consider assuming baby is overall healthy and a healthy weight. But I also think such advice can be taken to the point where it is no longer helpful. I also think it is important to have baby SEEN by a professional before taking any advice. I do not know if you saw the LC for a complete consult or if you just talked to her on the phone.

    Also, if baby is having some sensory issues or some other issue that causes nursing to be uncomfortable or unpleasant for them, leading to agitation, that would probably be outside of the knowledge or experience of the average LC.

    So, are you thinking wrong? I would not say that, but I would suggest it is not really about baby liking or not liking to nurse, at least not at this age- that comes later, late babyhood, toddlerhood. Some babies physically cannot nurse, but all babies are hard-wired to want- to need- to nurse. And this includes your baby- you know it includes your baby because your baby will nurse when asleep, a time when baby is not overthinking and instead is plugged only into their lower brain where instinct lives. Maybe the key is to find other times where baby is not fully asleep but almost, or is in a similar state of relaxation, and see what that brings? I realize you have already tried that, but again, sometimes it takes trying the same things over and over.
    Last edited by @llli*maddieb; October 29th, 2017 at 04:06 PM.

  2. #12
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    Jan 2017
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    We have seen in person 3 different LCs. And talked to phone with many of them.
    I do not know who to ask for help anymore. We do not have so many LCs here.
    Can you go with me step by step through this? I don"t have anyone else to ask for help.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    Yes, I am happy to help you any way I can. I may be at the limit of my knowledge at this point- In other words, I may start repeating myself so forgive me. If you have more info to provide or specific questions to ask or ideas you want to bounce around, or whatever, I am absolutely very happy to do my best to help in any way I can.

    Also, do you have any reasonably nearby breastfeeding support group? Or just a place to hang out with nursing moms? Sometimes just being around people who "get you" in at least this one area can be very helpful, even if they may not have additional specific solution-type ideas for you.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    There used to be lll group. But Leader "retired". That was the only LLL group in whole country. And due to laryngomalacia we should avoid crowded place with young one. If he cathes cold or something, he can face more complication than "normal" baby.
    Last night was horrible. After seeing that he did not gain weight well after my cutting out bottles, I decided to try to move one bottle at a time. Starting with the evening one. Because that evening nursing stayed for longest time. After so many pull offs and pull ons I gave him bottle. But after drinking it he was overtired and needed some morw rocking and soothing. Still that did not do the trick. So at some point I again laid him in bed (something which he resisted whole night), gave him other breast and he imideately took it and fell asleep in 1s. And again woke up in middle of night crying really hard. I could not soothe him. Bottle again. He settled a bit. Played a bit. I carried him. He fell asleep. And took breast again in sleep. Funny thing is that despite those bottles his diaper was still not so heavy as those nights when he is only nursing whole night.
    That is another worry about transfering to bottlefeeding. Despite him not being happy with breast, he gets more milk from breast than from bottle. He usually takes only 30ml from bottle at one serving and that takes a time. When he takes breast he gets much more milk in matter of few minutes. Husband I looked how much formula he would need to drink if I stop nursing. And laughed that we would need whole day giving him bottles in order that he drinks 1200 ml of formula.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    Well what you describe above sounds like a typical night with any average 6 month old. In other words, I think it is possible that restlessness at night, waking, crying, being difficult to settle etc. has anything to do with the breastfeeding issue you are having.

    So, I missed entirely that your child has a medical issue that is continuing. If you have time, and would like to, you can explain to me what laryngomalacia is, any treatments, additional health concerns, etc? I can look it up myself but I am more interested in what you and your baby are experiencing.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    Laryngomalacia (LM) basically means underdeveloped cartilage of larynx. It also leads to deformation of epiglottis into so called omega shape. It is congentinal conditions and most babies just outgrow it until they are 2y old. Since cartilage is too soft it simply collapses during breathing leading to stridor (noisy breathing). It also leads to a more pronounced reflux. We are lucky since we are diagnosed as mild type of LM.
    In our case all LM symptoms are obvious only during feeding. baby had some serious stridor during first month, choking and gasping for air also, and lack of suck swallow coordination. And silent reflux. He was never given any medicine since he was gaining weight.
    At this point, no stridor, not so much choking and still some lack of suck swallow breathe coordination.
    According to dr. Newman LM does not cause bf problems. Mrs Watson Genna would probably disagree with him.
    I am sure it caused problems for us at the beginning. But the turning point for my baby was after initial 2m when he started to have really hard time maintaining seal and consequently gulping so much air. He would gulp air and stop to bf.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    Also, we think his silent reflux was causing so much misery for him during his first 3m.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    Question on bottles: which approach do you suggest when giving bottle?
    Giving it in position that resembles bf or that someone else gives bottles/ bottle feeding is done outside of house?
    I find these two approaches conflicting and I do not know which one is "right" one.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    Wow ok. So the LCs you saw did not think the LM was related to your baby's feeding issues? Or did they think it was related? Did older child also have LM?

    With a quick search of the words Laryngomalacia and breastfeeding I found several info sites but I did not have time to explore the info itself. I assume you have looked at the information available online?

    Ok bottles. So, especially with a younger baby, or a baby who has trouble handling lots of milk at once (or a fast flow) the bottle feeding technique that is likely to make the most sense is paced bottle feeding. This is also the bottle feeding method suggested for babies who are breastfed, as this technique is thought to be the least likely to cause breast refusal issues.

    But for a 6 month old, paced bottles may no longer be appreciated by baby. By this age, most babies are better able to regulate flow even from a bottle, they are able to handle more milk at once, prefer to eat "faster" etc.- and so do not need the help with regulating flow that paced bottle feeding promotes. On the other hand, paced feeding is not going to hurt anything, it is still perfectly appropriate for a baby of any age assuming baby tolerates it. If baby does object to the slowness of the flow, the bottle could simply be tipped up higher so the milk flowed faster, or fewer pauses by caregiver could be made.

    Anyone can give baby the bottle. Having someone else aside mom give the bottle is a trick for when a baby is refusing bottles, and it may or may not always work.

    No bottle feeding method (or bottle or nipple type) can really work exactly like the breast. But paced feeding is meant to mimic breastfeeding to a pretty good degree in how the milk flows and how a baby takes natural pauses while nursing, which is more difficult for baby to do if the bottle is given with "gravity method." (Bottle tipped way up so bottle nipple is always entirely full or milk- and the flow is ongoing and hard for baby to stop.)

    The other ways a bottle might be given that is "like breastfeeding" is for the caregiver to hold baby close, front to front or cradled side to front but turned in to the caregiver. (Rather than propping the bottle or turning baby outward.) Rarely, some babies do not like to get bottles this way and prefer to be turned outward. It just depends on the baby. Anyone (mom or other) could give the bottle this way.

    Also it is suggested that baby be "switched" during the bottle feeding (or from feeding to feeding) just as naturally happens during a nursing session when a mom switches breasts. This is thought to promote normal eye and brain development.

    Are you familiar with paced bottle feeding? Here is info. https://www.llli.org/docs/0000000000...astfedbaby.pdf and video: With doll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH4T70OSzGs&t=23s with baby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxpIzcitLc8&t=48s

    Cup feeding is another alternative if baby is refusing bottles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R95FUa7_s84
    Last edited by @llli*maddieb; October 30th, 2017 at 10:46 PM.

  10. #20
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    Jan 2017
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    Default Re: Latch better at full breast - help!!!!!

    He is not refusing bottle. He really started to like his bottle meaning he gets calm and sleepy. Something he did before on breast long time ago. Today he took breast few times and once with nipple shield.
    But no matter how hard I try I can not make my boobs his place of calmness and hapiness. Is this also issue with other babies who prefer bottles?
    And my breasts stopped being his happy place long time before bottle (during his first month). I used pinky finger for so long to calm him down.
    Btw, no my older child did not have LM.
    And yes, this younger one refuses to take bottles oriented to me. Only outwards. Except when I put him in sling or ssc. Then he will take it and be perfectly still and calm. Otherwise he is constantly squirming.

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