Happy Mothers Breastfed Babies
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15

Thread: Baby #2 nursing terribly!

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    576

    Default Baby #2 nursing terribly!

    I haven't even had a chance to write my birth announcement, and I'm writing because of the painful nursing going on with my son. I nursed him round the clock from birth, and everything seemed okay. But we reached that point at day 2 where he was nursing furiously to get my milk to come in, and he started hurting me. I never had a great latch with my daughter, but it wasn't awful after the first few weeks so didn't think much of it. I had the nurse LCs come to help and we got better again. But once we got home and my milk still hadn't come in, he started damaging me terribly, popping on and off a ton of times (while tearing me up). He acts like he has nipple confusion with no other nipples having been introduced! And I can never tell when he's hungry, because he's always frantic and screaming as we try to nurse.

    I had an LC come to the house, and she was great. She said my flat nipples and milk not coming in were part of the problem, but we could overcome them. But Baby Boy still fights for 15 minutes before latching on, popping on and off (used to be one side, now on both). He'll latch on, suck twice, then struggle to get a shallow, very painful latch. Then this will happen 20 times before he finally will suck for a good 10 minutes, rarely more than that (every time he falls asleep because he's exhausted).

    Not sure anyone has any advice since the LC couldn't really "help," meaning she had to leave me alone at some point! Can I really heal with this constant reopening of wounds? It's so bad, I worry I'll need dental work from grinding my teeth (latching on being the worst, but that can be 20 times at one feeding).

    Ugh, why did I think it would be easy the second time around? Silly me!
    Mom to my sweet little "Pooper," born 10/12/11, and "Baby Brother," born 6/23/2014, and married to heavy metal husband. Working more than full-time, making healthy vegetarian meals for family, and trying to keep up with exercise routine.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    5,609

    Default Re: Baby #2 nursing terribly!

    Hi, congrats on new baby!
    poops ok? Has your milk become more abundant yet?

    Are you able to see LC again? Besides helping you with latch, did she suggest any other interventions? Are you doing anything in particular for nipple care?

    Can I really heal with this constant reopening of wounds?
    Well, no. If the wounds are constantly reopened, they will not heal, because they are being constantly reopened. But if latch can be improved to the point that nursing does not reopen the wounds, and that may take a little more time, then yes, even with severe injury, nipples can heal while mom continues to nurse.

    This sounds a lot like my oldest. Nursing sessions took forever because just getting him latched took 45 minutes to an hour. It's really hard. In that case, a large part of the issue was severe edema from iv fluids and engorgement making my nipples REALLY flat and I did use nipple shields at the recommendation of my IBCLC, which allowed baby to latch more easily. But I was able to keep nursing exclusively and once we got latch figured out a bit better, the wounds were able to scab over and heal.
    Last edited by @llli*lllmeg; June 27th, 2014 at 07:38 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    576

    Default Re: Baby #2 nursing terribly!

    Milk did come in. Now I'm engorged and fearing plugged ducts due to the damage and scabbing! Poops and pees are good. We had weight gain and jaundice concerns (mild) from the pediatrician, so we supplemented a bit for one day and all seems fine. I probably won't see IBCLC again until Monday, unless things are really severe. The latch issue is tough -- I try to improve the latch, but he just won't accept it for the most part. He fights the "proper" latch techniques. I tend to have to let him latch on however he wants, provided it's not very painful. Even the "good" latch is sort of painful, so I'm trying to keep whatever he's doing to an equal pain to that. But if he latches on and it stays unbearable, I do take him off. But if it's just kind of painful, and taking him off and putting him back seems worse, then I just tough it out.

    My husband just yelled at me to try to sleep, so I guess that's all I can report at the moment. But thanks for the help. It makes me feel a little better!
    Mom to my sweet little "Pooper," born 10/12/11, and "Baby Brother," born 6/23/2014, and married to heavy metal husband. Working more than full-time, making healthy vegetarian meals for family, and trying to keep up with exercise routine.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    5,609

    Default Re: Baby #2 nursing terribly!

    I agree with your husband. Catch the zzzzzs you can, update us when you can.

    No reason to see the IBCLC again immediately, Monday is fine! I just was hoping you would be able to follow up with her at some point, as you liked her. So important to have that support.

    But much of this is practice and you know what you are doing. keep the milk coming out as frequently as possible one way or another to ease the engorgement risks.

    He fights the "proper" latch techniques. I tend to have to let him latch on however he wants, provided it's not very painful....But if it's just kind of painful, and taking him off and putting him back seems worse, then I just tough it out.
    Proper latch = latch that does not hurt (or hurts the least) and baby is getting milk, which baby probably is if baby is pooping normally. If baby is fighting the "proper" latch technique then it's not proper for him. I agree that sometimes taking baby off repeatedly is worse then just leaving baby be even if its still hurting some. Also, sometimes adjustments can be made with baby latched, by shifting your position or baby's. My point is, don't worry about proper. Keep doing what works.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    21,149

    Default Re: Baby #2 nursing terribly!

    with LLLMeg

    Just wanted to add that you don't need to worry too much about infection from the cracks and scabs. There is an increased risk, yes, but it's not a guarantee. I had open cracks for 4.5 months and never got an infection.

    For the cracks, try a combination of 1% hydrocortisone cream and Bacitracin antibiotic ointment. Use a pea-sized amount, mixed and applied using a clean finger. You might also want to try hydrating the cracks before nursing- you can soak them with a wet washcloth or in a shot glass full of warm water. Wet, soft scabs tear open less painfully than dry, hard ones.
    Coolest thing my big girl said recently: "How can you tell the world is moving when you are standing on it?"
    Coolest thing my little girl sang recently: "I love dat one-two pupples!"

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    576

    Default Re: Baby #2 nursing terribly!

    Thanks for the advice. It is making me feel better to have someone to reach out to out there! I feel like the hydrating before a feed might work, because I think one of the many problems is that he cannot latch well on my nipples that are hard, scabbed and swollen. It seems like the more he latches and unlatches, the more he softens it and then is willing to latch on. I may be totally off on that, too -- that may have nothing to do with it. I'll have to try the ointment you recommend, mommal. I'm only using lanolin cream and putting some breastmilk on the nipples.

    I wrote the LC a desperate middle of the night email asking if she can come today. Not sure if she works weekends but we'll see. At one point I was a bit engorged and it was so painful for him to latch on either side that I couldn't let him do it, so I pumped and we fed him with a syringe. I started freaking out that this was what we'd be doing for every feed. But that doesn't seem to give him the comfort that nursing does, so it only kept him happy for a little while. He nursed better a few hours later. I decided I'll try for about 10 minutes to get him on, and if he won't then we'll pump and feed via syringe (about 1.6 oz, which is what I calculated using the weight x 2.5/# of feeds).

    Here's kind of what happens:
    I latch him on. I try to get lots of breast in there. The initial latch always hurts (when he will latch), but if it doesn't continue I try to keep him on. Sometimes he'll latch on, and I have to kind of forcefully hold his head there (which is what the LC did). He struggles and fights against that, turning his head to try and escape. Then I have to let him off and do it again. By this point he's freaking out and getting him to latch again is hard. Then this happens anywhere from 2 to 20 times, used to be only on one side, but now both. I try to quickly try breast compressions to get the milk out, but I can't tell if that helps him at all.

    I am not sure forcefully holding him is the way to go, but if I don't he just moves to a really shallow, painful latch, and we have to start over again! Then when he finally latches and stops fighting, he just falls right asleep. We're putting frozen vegetables on him to try to keep him sucking for at least 15 minutes, but that's really hard. He's probably not getting a really good feed. Since we need to keep his weight up AND he seems to already have some gas issues, I would prefer he stay on a little longer to get more of the hind milk, but we're not there yet.

    Also, even when feeding with the syringe, he acts a bit crazy. My husband said he was getting really frustrated and turning his head back and forth, crying a ton, because my husband was only trying to push a little in his mouth at a time. My husband wants to use a bottle for the feeds, but I want to wait until we talk to the LC again, even though it's hard to imagine it could get much worse at this point.

    Ugh -- so thank you for the help. Of course, my emotions are haywire, so I'm trying to not cry all the time in front of everyone, especially my toddler, in addition to all the problems!
    Mom to my sweet little "Pooper," born 10/12/11, and "Baby Brother," born 6/23/2014, and married to heavy metal husband. Working more than full-time, making healthy vegetarian meals for family, and trying to keep up with exercise routine.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    5,609

    Default Re: Baby #2 nursing terribly!

    this article provides a list of several good latch and positioning ideas, with links for further info. http://feedthebabyllc.com/latch-and-positioning/

    I suggest, look first at laid back breastfeeding and nipple sandwich latch. Also, Reverse Pressure Softening for helping baby latch when you are engorged.

    Since we need to keep his weight up AND he seems to already have some gas issues, I would prefer he stay on a little longer to get more of the hind milk, but we're not there yet
    .
    You really do not need any extra worries, so PLEASE do not worry about hindmilk. This is a non issue. It's about how much milk overall, not if the milk is fore or hindmilk. As far as a 'good feed"-There is no evidence that some certain length of time is needed at the breasts for a baby to gain appropriately either. This is going to vary tremendously baby to baby and age to age. Yes, baby needs to nurse long enough for there to be a letdown so baby can get some milk, but at this age, not much milk. Baby is not yet a week old, and it would be typically normal at five days for baby to have not yet started gaining, but it would be good if he has stopped losing. With your milk in, gain should start being fine. Baby has a weensy tum, so as little as a half ounce up to about maybe 2 ounces is a normal feeding. If baby will not nurse long, baby can make that up if baby will nurse more often. Don't think that nursing more often is worse for your pain and injury, it's not. Because nursing more often usually helps for these reasons- more practice, baby learns to latch, less engorgement, baby CAN latch, baby calmer, baby is not frantic and disorganized while trying to latch.

    To add to mommal's suggestions for nipple care- Lanolin, applied gently and frequently in a thin layer on the nipples, is suggested for promoting moist wound healing. Catherine Watson Genna suggests once or twice a day gentle washing with soap and water when there are open wounds on the nipples. http://cwgenna.com/nhygiene.html I suggest, when it comes to nipple care, keep it simple and don't do anything that hurts.

    My husband said he was getting really frustrated and turning his head back and forth, crying a ton,
    my oldest did this head shaking thing when trying to latch, it could be very upsetting. I think it is partly a cue or latch technique, gone frustratingly wrong. Baby WANTS to latch. He instinctually knows how to get milk. He cannot latch on a syringe, but there is milk in it, so that may be where he gets confused and frustrated.
    I suggest, don't necessarily give baby your pumped milk as a supplement unless there is some compelling reason. If you have to pump, save it.

    If you do need to supplement, syringes are surprisingly a little controversial, some say that they are not preferred because they do not promote anything baby needs to do when nursing, except swallowing of course.
    What about cup feeding? Because when cup feeding, baby has control over the feeding, nothing is being pushed into his mouth, and he must use his lips and tongue, it may actually be working the muscles and promoting the coordination needed for nursing much closer to syringe feeding.
    bottles I do not recommend especially when only very small amounts of supplement are needed, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. If using bottles, it is very very important that only small amounts be given and that paced bottle feeding technique and positioning be used, as well as a slow flow nipple. Again, nipple is not pushed into babies mouth, and baby and bottle are positioned so baby controls the flow.

    When I had latch issues with my oldest, we never got a 15 minutes feed at a time, but (once we realized we had to wake him up, about day 5 or so) he nursed at least 12 times every day. He was jaundiced because my milk did not become abundant until day 6, but after that, although his latch was so bad and we were using shields, he got plenty of milk. That is only my personal experience of course, ymmv. Also, because I was using shields, I was also pumping, but I froze that milk.

    Paced bottle feeding: http://www.llli.org/docs/00000000000...astfedbaby.pdf and video: http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...FD00534CAAC56E

    Cup feeding video from Newman Breastfeeding clinic:http://www.breastfeedinginc.ca/conte...me=vid-cupfeed Make sure you catch his explanation, the audio starts right away.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    576

    Default Re: Baby #2 nursing terribly!

    Thanks, Meg! We did do two bottle feeds today (we already were aware of paced feeding -- we like to call it "making bottles annoying for baby"). I showed my husband the cup video, though, and we may try it. Luckily my daughter had no problems going back and forth from bottle to breast, so we have our fingers crossed that if we get help on Monday we can overcome this.

    However, one thing -- I tried to put him on again today after pumping a bit. My nipple on that side is really swollen, with or without the pumping (I thought the pumping would draw it out for him). I am really thinking he just can't fit it in his little mouth, because it's very large and round. It looks like the diameter is almost as round as his mouth. My other one is almost flat at this point and he's doing great on that side since last night. Do you know if there's a way to get him to latch on with a swollen nipple? I think he's also mad about the flow rate, but pumping they seemed to come out at the same speed so I'm not really sure.

    I appreciate all this help. I'm trying to not get discouraged -- I know we still have hope as he's only 5 days old. And I've seen success from worse cases on here. But you know how every setback feels like a road to ruin especially in those early days!
    Mom to my sweet little "Pooper," born 10/12/11, and "Baby Brother," born 6/23/2014, and married to heavy metal husband. Working more than full-time, making healthy vegetarian meals for family, and trying to keep up with exercise routine.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    576

    Default Re: Baby #2 nursing terribly!

    So things have been getting a little better since I last wrote. Little Man has started latching on the right side (bad side). It's sometimes a struggle to get a decent latch -- I'm not sure I could ever call it good -- and I kind of have to hold him there with both hands or he moves around too much or pulls his head back. So no getting off the couch or leaving the house for me right now! But I still scream in pain during the initial latch, and then have to wait a second to see if it's a decent or bad latch (more pain means the latter). How long will it take to start getting a little bit of healing? My friend said it was about 2 weeks for her, but since he's still not great I think it might be a bit longer. My IBCLC seemed to want me to keep pumping and healing more, but I feel like I need to get him practicing his latch. He doesn't seem to be causing much new damage -- maybe a very small amount. He's much better on the left side now (still damaged, as well), and almost knows he how to open wide and latch on. With the bad side, it's still kind of waiting for the one big, wide open -- hoping I'm ready and trying to shove my breast in as fast as I can, then praying!

    Ibuprofen is my new best friend, but I don't want to overdo it!
    Mom to my sweet little "Pooper," born 10/12/11, and "Baby Brother," born 6/23/2014, and married to heavy metal husband. Working more than full-time, making healthy vegetarian meals for family, and trying to keep up with exercise routine.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    5,609

    Default Re: Baby #2 nursing terribly!

    Hi, I am so sorry I did not respond to your post of June 28th. I remember reading it, I must have gotten distracted.

    So is it only the swollen nipple side that is painful? Is the nipple STILL swollen? Are you still pumping on that side?

    I am worried about the swelling.

    Time certainly can help, assuming things are steadily (if slowly) improving. But if things are staying the same or getting worse, then it might not be a good idea to leave it to time.
    It is so important to keep baby latching as well as possible when you have injury, and avoiding doing anything to exacerbate the issue. I am concerned that swelling might be worsened by pumping.

    When my daughter had trouble latching on one side and that side was painful, swollen, engorged, plugged you name it, I had to sit up and really concentrate on doing a good breast sandwich latch every time she nursed, even at night. It was hard, but that is how we finally got through it. had such seep bruising it took a while - probably about 3-4 weeks or so- to feel actually comfortable. I saw two different IBCLCs professionally, one unprofessionally, and called everyone I know looking for help. But I knew I was on the right track when the pain slowly began to lessen and she was able to get milk out (my breast felt a little softer after nursing.)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •