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Thread: A bunch of issues

  1. #1

    Question A bunch of issues

    Hi!

    We tried for 5 years to conceive our beautiful daughter (PCOS). Hard pg. Iduction because i was overdue and pre-e. Then had post pre-e and magnesium treatment. Before the treatment i had been on the 3 step. bf, pump, sup. I was building a good supply until i had to get the mag treatment. I had gone down to almost nothing. Tried fenugreek but had an allergic reaction. I am eating oatmeal, drinking tons of water and power pumping 2x a day. So my supply is back up, however still not adequate. So now I find i have irregular supply throughout the day. The most engorged i get is when she sleeps for 5 hours at night. She does no even need a sup bottle and I pumped 3 oz after feed!!! But the very next feed she demands X2 2oz sup bottles. after that she is going back and forth between bottles and breast until she seems satisfied. this lasts for 2-5 hours and she has between 6 and 8+oz. I have a fast let down. But most of the time she (now 1 month) is fine. other times she plays with me. Spits my nipple in and out, gets a mouth full and spits it at me or opens her mouth and lets it spill out while smiling or just pops off and stiars as my milk pours out. Then she gets frustrated when there is none left. Sometimes she will empty my boob, other times she just stops bfing and demands a bottle but i still have milk. i know because i hand express to check.

    Any tips?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    21,341

    Default Re: A bunch of issues

    Welcome to the forum and congratulations on the new baby and on making it through a very difficult beginning with her!

    Based on what you've posted, I think there's an excellent chance that you could wean off the supplemental bottles rather quickly and exclusively nurse. The fact that you feel engorged at night and can pump 3 oz after the morning feeding points to you being able to produce plenty of milk, which is great!

    Feeling like your supply varies over the course of the day is totally normal. Most moms feel like their supply is highest in the morning and the wee hours of the night, and falls as the day progresses. This often leads a mom to feel that her baby needs more and larger supplemental bottles as the day goes on. What is important to remember is that less milk is not no milk, and that it is not necessary for you to feel full in order for you to have sufficient milk. An empty-feeling breast will still deliver plenty of milk if the baby is nursing well.

    If this were me, here's what I would do:
    1. See a lactation consultant, preferably an IBCLC, for some hands on help.
    2. Pump after feedings with a high quality electric pump. When you can pump enough to fill all the baby's supplemental bottles, you know you have enough milk to transition to exclusive nursing.
    3. Phase out the bottles. Decrease the amount that you are offering in the bottles by 1/2 an oz, wait a few days, and then decrease by another 1/2 oz, etc. As the amount in the bottles comes down, the amount the baby takes by breast should be going up.
    4. As you phase out the bottles, watch the baby's diaper output really carefully. Inadequate intake will show up in her diaper output first. As long as her diaper output is normal, she is getting enough to eat even if she is acting really fussy.
    5. Nurse as much as possible. If baby seems frustrated, give her a little break from nursing and then try again. The best way for her to learn to nurse well is for her to practice all the time!
    Coolest thing my big girl said recently: "How can you tell the world is moving when you are standing on it?"
    Coolest thing my little girl sang recently: "I love dat one-two pupples!"

  3. #3

    Default Re: A bunch of issues

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*mommal View Post
    Welcome to the forum and congratulations on the new baby and on making it through a very difficult beginning with her!

    Based on what you've posted, I think there's an excellent chance that you could wean off the supplemental bottles rather quickly and exclusively nurse. The fact that you feel engorged at night and can pump 3 oz after the morning feeding points to you being able to produce plenty of milk, which is great!

    Feeling like your supply varies over the course of the day is totally normal. Most moms feel like their supply is highest in the morning and the wee hours of the night, and falls as the day progresses. This often leads a mom to feel that her baby needs more and larger supplemental bottles as the day goes on. What is important to remember is that less milk is not no milk, and that it is not necessary for you to feel full in order for you to have sufficient milk. An empty-feeling breast will still deliver plenty of milk if the baby is nursing well.

    If this were me, here's what I would do:
    1. See a lactation consultant, preferably an IBCLC, for some hands on help.
    2. Pump after feedings with a high quality electric pump. When you can pump enough to fill all the baby's supplemental bottles, you know you have enough milk to transition to exclusive nursing.
    3. Phase out the bottles. Decrease the amount that you are offering in the bottles by 1/2 an oz, wait a few days, and then decrease by another 1/2 oz, etc. As the amount in the bottles comes down, the amount the baby takes by breast should be going up.
    4. As you phase out the bottles, watch the baby's diaper output really carefully. Inadequate intake will show up in her diaper output first. As long as her diaper output is normal, she is getting enough to eat even if she is acting really fussy.
    5. Nurse as much as possible. If baby seems frustrated, give her a little break from nursing and then try again. The best way for her to learn to nurse well is for her to practice all the time!

    I would love to do all of those things. I am just a little nervous. I have seen a lactation consultant and have a hospital issued pump. I only get the 3oz in the wee morning hours. During the day I feed, sup then pump (regular not power pump). And I do not get that much milk. I get from 10ml to 1.5 oz during day pumpings. But she is eating at least 4 oz sup bottles per cycle. If she does not get the sup bottles she screams and is very hungry. I have tried to wait about 10 min and put her back on the boob... but there is simply none left in there. No milk at the side of her mouth, and when I try to hand express I get nothing. I think my milk builds back up slow or something. If I wait an hour I have about 1-1.5oz. One of my friends is sending me some liquid homeopathic supplements for breastfeeding and supply. So I will try those. I try hard not to go to sup bottles, and then go to my pumped milk first. She demands at least 3 - 5 bottles of formula a day. I have tried to give her less but she is very unhappy when I do.

    I was typing one handed yesterday... so a little more info for you all. She latched right away after birth and was great at bfing. But her little mouth was maybe a little to small to stim me really well. by day 3 she was feeding constantly and crying. She would not sleep. Because she was a little janticed they wanted be to come back in for a billirubins count. As I was getting her ready she became lethargic. By the time I got her to the hospital she was unresponsive and would not feed. Her blood sugar was super low. We got that sorted and were admitted to regulate our feedings. I had a hands on lactation consultant. And I learned how to empty my breast after pumping to build a bigger supply. It was after I went home a 2nd time that my blood pressure went back through the roof and I was readmitted the 3rd time that we started to really have problems. Before that milk supply was building. And the more I can pump the better supply gets for sure. But most days she is to needy for me to have the time to pump more then 3 times on the count of her having more waking time. Now that she is getting a little bit more independent it is easier. But we still have good days and bad days. So it scares me to take away any food. I was told to feed them if they are hungry at this stage. So the idea of just letter her be fussy and hungry is not appealing to me at all. Plus I think DH would be foursquare against it. Any other ideas?

  4. #4
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    Default Re: A bunch of issues

    perhaps Look into using a lactation aid or supplemental nursing system so that you can give the supplement right at the breast and save a step by not needing to give a bottle after. They can be a pain to use and I would recommend trying to troubleshoot any problems so that hopefully you can get away from needing to supplement long term since babies sometimes get wise and start trying to latch onto the tube instead of the breast. I'm still using one with my baby but I try not to have to use it more than twice a day now (still dealing with suck re-training after tongue and lip tie revisions.)

  5. #5

    Default Re: A bunch of issues

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*tclynx View Post
    perhaps Look into using a lactation aid or supplemental nursing system so that you can give the supplement right at the breast and save a step by not needing to give a bottle after. They can be a pain to use and I would recommend trying to troubleshoot any problems so that hopefully you can get away from needing to supplement long term since babies sometimes get wise and start trying to latch onto the tube instead of the breast. I'm still using one with my baby but I try not to have to use it more than twice a day now (still dealing with suck re-training after tongue and lip tie revisions.)
    I will have to look into that. As of right now funds are a bit tight. Today she has been more into napping. So I have been waking her up to feed. and so far only 1 formula bottle as a result. I am hoping her napping suckle stimulates more production too.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: A bunch of issues

    You say your baby is taking 4 oz feedings from the bottle after nursing. That's an entire feeding- most babies take just 2-4 oz at a time when they nurse, and that applies throughout the first year. I think that the very large supplements are likely decreasing your child's motivation to nurse. That's why she won't go back to the breast after a supplement- she's too full to want to work for what is in the breast. And there is milk in the breast, even if you feel empty! Milk is always being made and it is made faster when the breast is very empty.
    Coolest thing my big girl said recently: "How can you tell the world is moving when you are standing on it?"
    Coolest thing my little girl sang recently: "I love dat one-two pupples!"

  7. #7

    Default Re: A bunch of issues

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*mommal View Post
    You say your baby is taking 4 oz feedings from the bottle after nursing. That's an entire feeding- most babies take just 2-4 oz at a time when they nurse, and that applies throughout the first year. I think that the very large supplements are likely decreasing your child's motivation to nurse. That's why she won't go back to the breast after a supplement- she's too full to want to work for what is in the breast. And there is milk in the breast, even if you feel empty! Milk is always being made and it is made faster when the breast is very empty.
    She goes back to the breast after bottle. She is a little eater. Yesterday was a good day and she only took 3 formula bottles all day! She was getting more boob milk! But... the nurse took my pump back. And since then I have only been able to pump with a hand pump. I get 1 oz max with the hand pump. Also she demanded X3 2oz bottles in a row this morning and that was after breast feeding so she got at least 7 oz that feeding. She is not fat. And she does not spit up like she ate too much. She really demands that much. Feedings last 2 hours or more. Do you think that is the problem? I am not making enough because she demands more then the average baby?

  8. #8
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    Default Re: A bunch of issues

    I don't think the baby's demand explains your difficulties. The more demand the baby gives, the more supply a mom will have, right? So it's much more likely that any problems with supply are explained by supplemental feedings reducing baby's demand and by the baby receiving so much food from the bottle that she has no particular incentive to nurse well.

    Keep putting her to the breast and try to reduce the bottle size a little at a time. I am sure you will get where you want to be!
    Coolest thing my big girl said recently: "How can you tell the world is moving when you are standing on it?"
    Coolest thing my little girl sang recently: "I love dat one-two pupples!"

  9. #9

    Default Re: A bunch of issues

    I only give her a bottle when I have no milk and she is still hungry. Today she refused the bottle. We went back and forth between empty breasts until she gave up. I do the extra simulation after feeds to simulate boob time because of the bottle feeds. So as far as supply and demand goes I should still be stimulating demand with the extra pumping. Honestly I am starting to believe that the nurses are right about PCOS and low milk production. I do not think my body can handle the demand. I do what I can to cut back. That has always been the goal. But I will not deny a hungry baby food.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: A bunch of issues

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*mariahpoo View Post
    I only give her a bottle when I have no milk and she is still hungry. Today she refused the bottle. We went back and forth between empty breasts until she gave up. I do the extra simulation after feeds to simulate boob time because of the bottle feeds. So as far as supply and demand goes I should still be stimulating demand with the extra pumping. Honestly I am starting to believe that the nurses are right about PCOS and low milk production. I do not think my body can handle the demand. I do what I can to cut back. That has always been the goal. But I will not deny a hungry baby food.
    I don't think anyone here would say to make a baby go hungry, I think the recommendation is to try to reduce the size of bottles to something resembling a reasonable size breast feeding since breastfed babies should eat small amounts more often rather than large feedings spaced far apart since even women with ample milk supply usually don't have enough storage capacity to provide large infrequent feedings. If baby is very used to very large feedings it may be nearly impossible for you to ever satisfy by breast even if there were no question about your supply. If baby can get used to smaller meals more often then you may have a better chance of minimizing supplement and maximizing breastfeeding.

    And if you can get your hands on a lactation aid it can save you time since you will be able to provide the breast AND the supplement all at the same time which should also make getting time to pump a little easier.

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