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Thread: frenectomy and no more nursing

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    79

    Default frenectomy and no more nursing

    I haven't been in this forum for 2 years almost since my 1st DD has been feeding like a champ and did so for 19 months. I though the second time around would work like a charm...Well it ain't so and i am getting super discouraged.
    My 2nd DD was born oct. 10. Even though she was on the breast some 3 hours after birth she was hurting me while nursing. I thought to myself i cannot be doing it that wrong...but hey we will get it in time. 4 days after her birth a nurse took a look at my soar nipples and said they were one of the worst she had even since and that it is caused when a child is tongue-tied.
    Referred us right away to a ped who performed a frenectomy when she was just 6 days old. Everyone was saying how it will be much better but she sould have to learn how to nurse the right away all over again....Well, she started refusing the breast...loosing weight and we had to pump my milk (as my supp. was drying up as well within two days of her refusing to nurse). She would have some breast milk and as per the nurses proposition she would have some formula to get the amount of milk she needed. I have been taking fenugreek, blessed thistle and domperidone for 15 days and pumping 8 times a day. She has gained weight really well and doing great.
    Although things are good i am so sad: Cause i cannot breastfeed her at each feeding i offer the breast for 10-15 minutes so as not to frustrate her too much then her bottle of breast milk. (some five days ago i have been able to take out the formula as i pump between 90-160 ml each time). I tried the shield it as a hot mess.
    I am getting discouraged and tired...I dont want to give up but how do i get her back on the breast??? I consulted a kellymom link i saw in a post....but i don't seem to get her to even lay beside the breast. She fights...pushes away and screams.
    We saw her pediatrician two days ago who said he would have made sure the nursing is well established before the frenectomy and that there was reallly nothing to worry about with the weight...I am so sad....i just want to nurse her and she doesn't want to....any advice?
    first time mama to a gassy but adorable baby named Makayla- Wouldn't give up breasfeeding for anything in the world.

    We co-sleep, we love and

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    21,371

    Default Re: frenectomy and no more nursing

    Welcome back, mama! I'm sorry it's a problem which brings you back to the forum.

    Have you found this link from kellymom: http://kellymom.com/bf/concerns/child/back-to-breast/? It's got all the techniques I know of to get a baby back to the breast. The skin-to-skin and instant reward techniques are supposed to be especially helpful. I know the shield was a hot mess but I encourage you to try it again. Maybe it will work better this time.

    Another thing to try is the "finish at the breast" technique. You start the feeding with some expressed milk or formula, and after about an ounce you offer the breast. Because maybe now that the baby isn't quite so starving she's got a little more patience for latching and nursing. Hopefully once baby is in the habit of nursing, you can start to ditch the bottles.

    Good luck!!!
    Coolest thing my big girl said recently: "How can you tell the world is moving when you are standing on it?"
    Coolest thing my little girl sang recently: "I love dat one-two pupples!"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    5,926

    Default Re: frenectomy and no more nursing

    I am a little confused. Is baby breastfeeding at all? Is the problem that baby is totally refusing the breast or that you are supplementing and want to stop supplementing? Are you looking for info on weaning off the supplements or getting baby back to the breast-or both?

    She fights...pushes away and screams.
    have you tried skin to skin? This means, just holding your baby on your chest, not "trying" to get baby to nurse, just snuggling her when you are both relaxed, calm, you are leaning back, she is safe and secure on top of you? Does she get upset even then? If she cannot tolerate being naked on you, try it with you wearing a shirt with easy access and/or baby can be in onesie. Keep snuggling her there, doing lots of skin to skin or at least snuggling. If baby starts to root in any way, get her near your nipple, and then you can try a little instand reward as suggested in the kellymom article. but do not try to make her nurse. Is even that kind of snuggling upsetting to her?

    If your baby was unable to nurse without tearing up your nipples and that was due to tongue tie, then a frenotomy was probably appropriate. Waiting until breastfeeding is established is not going to work in most tongue tie cases because the tongue tie is preventing breastfeeding from being established-although in hindsight it may have helped if you had been encouraged to pump as well as nursing at that point. Certainly that is what the experts you saw believed, I hope no doctor would do a frenotomy without reason. I am saying, please do not blame yourself for having the frenotomy done.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    5,926

    Default Re: frenectomy and no more nursing

    Also there is the possiblilty there is some physical issue and baby cannot nurse. Have you/are you able to see an IBCLC to hav babies suck/latch assessed?


    These are links to videos and pictures showing the leaning back style of nursing I am talkign about. But you do not need to think of this as a 'nursing' position. That maight be making you tense-think of this as a way to relax wiht baby: Laid back position http://www.llli.org/docs/00000000000...astfeeding.pdf

    Laid back video http://www.biologicalnurturing.com/video/bn3clip.html

    Here are two simple pictorials, you want the one on latch. Notice that the mother is in a “slightly” laid back position, looks like on a couch? This is a very “adjustable” position, play around to find how you and your baby are most comfortable. http://cwgenna.com/quickhelp.html

    This video is not in English but it does not matter. Shows the versatility of laid back nursing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SZ3zb5OYMA

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    79

    Default Re: frenectomy and no more nursing

    hi mamas thanks for answering i have watched the videos and ready the kelly mom tips....but i have to admit i am feeling defeated.

    From day 1-6: she was breastfeeding exclusively and gaining. although she was hurting me she would latch on well.

    Post ferenectomy: She started refusing the breast and loosing weight. So i pumped my milk both to feed her in a cup and to keep my supply up. She refuses the breast totally...in the past two weeks she has fed on the breast maybe twice. And gradually she has been refusing more and more. so she is no longer breastfeeding only taking the pumped milk in a bottle.

    She doesn't get upset while snuggling on the contrary she likes it.

    What i do: at each feeding i offer the breast for 10 mins without getting her too frustrated. She doesn't take it at all so i give her a bottle of 100-120ml pumped milk and i pump for the next feeding. Since my supply is up i was able to take out the formula. I tried giving her a few ounces in the bottle and then offering the breast...she pukers her lips and stares at me. Not reacting at all to the milk dripping out and on her cheek.

    I would like to get her back to the breast completely...we do a lot of skin to skin....she usually awakes bobs to the breast and as soon as it touches her lip she screams and refuses to open her mouth.

    I am gonna look for a IBCLC in my area cause i am feeling really discouraged...really...this is not at all what i imagine....and i am feeling defeated.

    Thanks for yoru support ladies it is quite priceless. I am holding on so tight to the image of her two months from now..brastfeeding and reaching up to my face and smiling so i don't give up.
    first time mama to a gassy but adorable baby named Makayla- Wouldn't give up breasfeeding for anything in the world.

    We co-sleep, we love and

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    21,371

    Default Re: frenectomy and no more nursing

    Have you tried making bottle-feeding more like breastfeeding? That can make for an easier transition between breast and bottle because the breast is not so dissimilar from the bottle (or cup or syringe or whatever). If not, try the following:
    - When it is time to nurse, cuddle baby close to your bare chest.
    - Tickle baby's lips with the bottle until she opens WIDE- you don't want her learning sloppy latch habits from getting a bottle slipped into a half-open mouth
    - Pause the feeding after about every oz of milk, so that she gets used to the ebb and flow rhythm of nursing
    - Switch baby's orientation about halfway through the feeding so that she gets used to the experience of being switched from breast to breast and laying a different way while eating
    - Keep the bottles relatively small- 2-3 oz at most- so that baby is hungry more often and therefore giving you more opportunities to offer the breast
    Coolest thing my big girl said recently: "How can you tell the world is moving when you are standing on it?"
    Coolest thing my little girl sang recently: "I love dat one-two pupples!"

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    5,926

    Default Re: frenectomy and no more nursing

    I hope you can see an IBCLC. What resources are in your area? You want someone experienced with breast refusal if at all possible. And experienced with tongue tie if at all possible.

    I have to say I have never heard of a baby who nursed fine, (as in, liked to nurse and was getting plenty of milk, I know it was injuring you and was not really 'fine') But I have never heard of a case where baby nurses well enough to gain normally, and then baby suddenly stops nursing to the point baby is losing weight! Since this happened right when the frenotomy was performed, it just sounds as if something might have gone really wrong.
    Have you thought of going back to the doctor who did the frenotomy to have baby's mouth examined? Or another doctor? Why would baby stop nursing right after the frenotomy-stop even trying? that is a puzzle.

    So you were cup feeding after baby first started refusing-at the point of the start of the breast refusal, had baby ever had a bottle? I guess even if the initial refusal had nothing to do with bottles it has to be considered that there is some nipple confusion or "flow" confusion going on now. Are you using paced bottle feeding techniques as mommal describes? Also, holding the bottle so milk does not pour into babies mouth...here is more info. The video is good but I suggest ignore what she says about time between feedings and cue feed.
    Paced bottle feeding

    -bottle feeding the breastfed baby
    Information sheet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH4T70OSzGs
    Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH4T70OSzGs

    Have you tried giving a much smaller feeding, and then offering the breast? a couple of ounces is a full feeding, maybe try half an ounce? Food is food. If she is not reacting at all to the milk dripping around her mouth, she is probably not hungry. (I am sure you are aware a baby will suck on a bottle well past satiety.) The bottles your baby is taking are not enormous, but they are on the high side of normal, so I agree with mommal about trying smaller bottle feedings more frequently.

    So when you and baby are snuggling, baby shows zero interest in the breast, never rooting, head bobbing, trying to find the nipple, smacking or pursing her lips, 'searching' with her lips, sucking her hands, or anything that looks anything like rooting or nursing cues while you are holding her? Not even in her sleep? Or does she show interest, but then cannot manage to latch?

    Because it is good baby loves to be snuggled at the breast. With some extreme cases of breast refusal, even getting to that point is a journey. The next step is setting the stage for baby to root.

    I know you said you tried a sheild and it was a mess, but this is the type of situation where nipple sheilds may really help. But they have to be the right size for you and put on correctly, and even then they can be very difficult to use, yet worth it, if they get baby latching and nursing. If you want to try that again let me know, I have personal experience and may be able to give a few pointers.

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