2nd time around...problems the first time.

[@llli*manitobamommy]

I think you are really courageous. And we ALL have regrets about things we did, or did not do, or did wrong with our first child (and every subsequent one too). Whether it's breastfeeding or something else. Don't give in to mommy guilt! You just do the best you can with what you have.

[@llli*koms1016]

Thanks ladies for all the support! Really feel like I can do this now.

[@llli*mommal]

You can! You really, really can!

And we hope you'll stick around the forum so that we'll get to enjoy your success.

[@llli*marigold5178]

For the pain: for me pumping was extremely painful the first few times I tried it. But after using that pump for 5 minutes, the pain I experienced during nursing seemed minimal, and then went away entirely. If you can stand it, toughen your nipples up with pumping (wait until after baby is born, because they say it stimulates contractions beforehand).

[@llli*maddieb]

Hi and welcome Marigold5178!

But after using that pump for 5 minutes, the pain I experienced during nursing seemed minimal, and then went away entirely.

do you mean you pumped for 5 minutes and then nursed right after? And how long did you do that?

[@llli*marigold5178]

This was when I was trying to build up a stockpile before I went back to work. I would pump for 5-10 minutes or as long as I could stand it after nursing. I only did this for about a month, and then I was pumping at work and nursing at home. I always hated pumping, nursing was a joy in comparison, but it got less painful the more I did it.

[@llli*maddieb]

Hi marigold thanks, I was just curious- so you were pumping after nursing, not before. OK. I asked because pumping prior to nursing can sometimes help in getting a better/more comfortable latch, so that is what I was wondering about. So over time, the pumping got less painful? or nursing? or both?

As far as the op's initial question-Ideally, nursing should never hurt. It is a new sensation, that is for sure. And certainly many mothers do in fact find that it does hurt in the first several days or even couple of weeks but then improves without any particular changes or treatment as mom and baby figure out positions and latch 'techniques' that work for them. Is part of this that the nipple changes to allow more comfortable nursing? I don’t know if this has been well studied. Certainly some mothers who have breastfed for some time often notice nipple changes-primarily, that the nipples tend to look or feel more prominent. But not ‘tougher.’

When dealing with pain related to nursing, if the pain does not start improving fairly quickly, and especially if there is nipple damage or the pain is so bad it makes a mother unable to nurse, that usually indicates a latch issue, especially in the early days/weeks. It is amazing how much an off latch can hurt!

And it is not uncommon for latch to look and feel fine in the first hours or days and then become painful, as the breast changes with milk production, and/or as baby reacts to the more abundant milk. Also a latch can look great, but if it hurts, that is a red flag something is not right.

In hindsight, it does sound as if vasospasm and/or thrush played a part in the issues you had breastfeeding your older child. But IF (and it's a big if) you have any difficulties with pain this time around, I suggest don't assume latch is definitely not the problem because it was good in the hospital or the early days. In my experience, a shallow latch almost always at least contributes to nursing pain.

Sometimes breastfeeding issues are just too great to overcome no matter what a mom does. But this is rare. Unfortunately, many mothers are not able to nurse for as long as they would have liked, not because they failed, but because they have been failed by a medical establishment and a society that neither values breastfeeding nor understands how to support and help the breastfeeding mother. In fact, all too often, medical practices and societal ignorance about breastfeeding and about normal newborn needs and behavior actively undermine a mother’s ability to breastfeed her child.

The way to counteract that situation is to arm yourself with accurate information and meaningful support. Posting here is a great way to start.

[@llli*koms1016]

Thank you for the information. Her latch was good but perhaps it wasn't deep enough. I'm so glad I posted and I feel good about my chances to succeed this time. I found my LL group and am going to my first meeting next week! If only I knew about this last time! I am afraid of pushy nurses but my husband said he'll handle them, and I know what I have to do.

Another quick question...but how much weight loss is too much? I know she will loose some weight, but if I know what the danger zone is, I can be prepared and know that saying no to formula won't hurt her if she isn't close to it. My first was 6.2 when she was born, and the doc said this one will be around the same size also.

[@llli*maddieb]

Another quick question...but how much weight loss is too much? I know she will loose some weight, but if I know what the danger zone is, I can be prepared and know that saying no to formula won't hurt her if she isn't close to it. My first was 6.2 when she was born, and the doc said this one will be around the same size also.

that is the million dollar question.
For one thing, scales lie. The scale in the delivery room is different than the one in the post partum area, which is different than the one in your pediatricians office. Yes I know it's ridiculous but not everyone calibrates their scales correctly. Then you have human error, with weights read or written down incorrectly.

The rule of thumb that has been around for sometime is that hospital born babies can lose up to 7% of birth weight without much concern. It used to be up to 10% before concern, but that is said less now, although I do not know why.

Does that mean the baby who loses 8% must get formula, and a baby who loses only 3% never needs supplements? No. This is just a rule of thumb. If baby is nursing frequently, making wet diapers, pooping a bit-those are all good signs that all is well. If baby has not pooped at all, has scant wets, and is not latching well and it's day 3 that may be a different story.

A new twist is that now some hospitals appear to be concerned if baby loses a certain amount in the first day. My baby who was born 6 months ago via c-section (so her birthweight was certainly inflated) and lost 6% of her birthweight in the first 24 hours, which I thought (and still think) seemed perfectly normal, and one of the residents started hinting around about supplements because of that. I have since heard of babies being supplemented because they lost 'too much' that first day.

On the other hand, some breastfeeding experts are suggesting that the birth weight after a hospital birth is usually so unnaturally inflated, it should be ignored, and weight loss/gain measured from the 24 hour weight check instead!

Other concerns that can lead to supplementing a (needed and, all to often, uneeded) are blood sugar levels and jaundice.

Remember that the very best 'cure' for any of these potential issues is your own milk, the colustrum your body releases after your baby is born. So at any sign of trouble, the first thing to do would be to see an ibclc on staff (if available) for help figuring out how to get more colustrum/milk into baby.

Formula is MEDICINE for the breastfed baby. Giving it has real risks, just as with any medication. So, if needed, it should be ordered by a pediatrician and not by a nurse! I know for a fact (because it has happened to me) that sometimes nurses will suggest/order formula for no medical reason at all.

You should understand why they believe your baby needs formula rather than your own milk. If they say "because you are not making enough" and it's day 2, they know nothing about the normal processes of lactation. And you should be consulted and give your informed consent before supplements are given.

Talk to your doctor about what protocols are in place at your hospital for post birth weight checks and blood testing. Some hospitals give all babies a blood sugar test, some only some babies. Take the hospital tour if they give one, and ask the nurse about when formula is 'suggested' for breastfed babies. Find out ahead of time if there is an IBCLC on staff and if it is likely you will be able to see her if needed.

[@llli*marigold5178]

For me nursing hurt for three months. I saw an LC and she said his latch was fine, and diagnosed me with thrush, which made sense because i was given a heavy dose of antibiotics after delivery (I had to have a transfusion, excessive bleeding due to retained placenta). I never saw any signs of thrush in the baby, no white spots. Nothing we tried for thrush seemed to work (probiotics, nystatin, diflucan, grapefruit seed extract). I never had open sores and my nipples always looked fine to me, it just always hurt to nurse. Burning in my nipples and even weird burning pain in my back. I cried a lot. I quit taking all the medication and decided maybe I was just going to have to live with the pain. Around the 4 month mark I started pumping after nursing to build up my freezer supply so I could go back to work. Also around this time I quit wearing a bra entirely. The pain went away within about a week, first for nursing and then the pumping became less painful too. I guess maybe the thrush went away, but I wonder too if I just got used to it, because the pumping was so awful at first that the nursing seemed okay after that.

It seems like there are a lot of women on here who have similar experiences with thrush (nothing seems to work to treat it). I wish I had some better advise, but I don't know why mine went away (or if i even had it). I guess I'm just lucky that it did.

Keep after it ladies! try lots of different things, you never know what might work! you are all so brave!