....aaaaaaghhh!

[@llli*acover4422]

It seems that I am destined to not breastfeed my child.

This afternoon, I had a nasty pain in my left breast, a lot like when you press on a buise, except that it was constant (but made worse if something touched it). When LO was nursing or when any gentle pinching pressure was applied to the nipple, it was also worse. As the day wore on I was exhausted and my breast felt a little hot to the touch, so I started to suspect a plugged duct or the beginnings of mastitis. I'm seeing the doctor tomorrow anyway, so I ignored it. Now, the general pain is gone, but it's still very painful when LO nurses that side. What is going on? LO's latch is terrible, yes; but this is a deep breast pain, not the kind of pain I've always had from her bad latch. We're both currently being treated for thrush, if that makes a difference.

LO will still usually only let me nurse her while in motion: if I try to sit or lay down, she arches her back, drops the nipple, and cries. We've tried swaddling her, having me sit down slowly, nursing in a side-lying position, and rocking while nursing. If she's in one of her Motion Moods - which I'd say happens about 70% of the time - there's no getting her to nurse any other way.

She's now started to spit up breastmilk, but only breastmilk: the formula we've put her on since moving to the UK is specially designed for babies with reflux and regurgitation problems, and she keeps that down fine. Every time I breatfeed her, she spits up, a lot.

The falling asleep at the breast is getting worse. To wake her, we've tried calling her name; talking to her constantly throughout the nursing session; patting her butt firmly but of course gently; taking her socks off; tickling her feet (which she normally hates); blowing air onto her face and applying a cool washcloth to her forehead and behind her ears. I've even tried tickling her nose with my hair, nothing works. So what happens is I start nursing her, and can hear her gulping milk down very quickly (I think I have a fast letdown). Once the intial 'heavy gulping' has calmed down, she falls right to sleep. I put her in her bouncy chair or swing. She sleeps for anything from five to twenty minutes. She nurses again for five. She falls asleep. My mother screams at me to "breastfeed her properly or give up" * . And repeat, until eventually LO becomes too frustrated to nurse, I'm upset, and LO is so hungry that she eats 6oz of formula, and my mother starts to rant about how I'm obviously not producing enough to satisfy my big baby.

*(Side note: REALLY, mother? You've seen me struggling with this from the day LO was born and not give up with it, even though it's making my life miserable and even putting a strain on my marriage, and the best support you can give me is 'do it properly' ? You... Uuughh.)

Also, I've never been able to find any good resources for supplementing. I can tell that LO is getting enough because she's happy, healthy, gaining weight, and her diaper output is good. But what I'm working on doing is pumping so that when LO won't nurse or it's too painful, I can give her bottled breastmilk. Obviously it will take time to get my supply back up enough that I can get her off of formula completely, though, and all I can find assumes that baby is getting only bottled breastmilk or only formula. I know that 6oz formula =/= 6oz breastmilk because breastmilk changes as baby ages, so I don't know how many oz I should be giving her; or whether she'll even be satisfied by that or want more because she's used to bottles being a 6oz formula feed.

I'm sorry to be so negative, ladies, but we've had one thing after another and all I've ever wanted to do is breastfeed my child. I'm starting to completely lose all hope that I can stick at this, and I so desperately need advice
(The good news is, now that I'm done moving, I can FINALLY find a LLL group, yay!)

[@llli*carm3]

I know that thrush can cause some deep breast pain, but I'm not sure about the warmth part. I'm afraid I don't have any advice about the other stuff, but I'm sure other mamas will

I'm not familiar with your situation...is your mother living with you? Perhaps in a calm moment you can explain to her that the stress of her ranting/screaming is contributing to your supply issues, and that you really need her support to make this work! If that fails, tell her how you feed YOUR baby is none of her beeswax, and tjat she should follow the 'Thumper' policy...."if you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all!"

Good luck, and remember...the moms here have got your back!

[@llli*nathansmum]

Sorry your mom is being so unhelpful that sounds very frustrating, try to tune her out if you can. Some babies are just snackers and want to nurse often, mine was like that the first 3 months. Here is a link to some information on weaning from supplements.
http://kellymom.com/bf/got-milk/basi...rease-formula/

[@llli*lllmeg]

I know that 6oz formula =/= 6oz breastmilk because breastmilk changes as baby ages, so I don't know how many oz I should be giving her; or whether she'll even be satisfied by that or want more because she's used to bottles being a 6oz formula feed.

The only idea I have for the deep breast pain is the thrush or a plug. If you start feeling ill/feverish that would indicate mastitis. I'm interested in what the doctor says. Have you been travelling, tired, stressed? Sometimes pluggs and mastitis crop up if mom is doing too much and needs rest.

Real quick-a breastfed baby typically takes in somewhere between 25 and 35 ounces of breast milk per day from age 6 weeks to 6 months, if that helps.
There is no particular reason to give baby 6 ounce bottles of formula is there? Why not smaller feedings more frequently so it's closer to typical breastfeeding?
i am sure you have seen this but jic- http://www.llli.org/docs/00000000000...astfedbaby.pdf

[@llli*acover4422]

Travelling, and stressed? I just moved from the US to the UK, so that takes care of the first, and the second... Ha. I love LO with all my heart, but all the problems we've been having have had me pulling my hair out for months.

There is no particular reason to give baby 6 ounce bottles of formula is there? Why not smaller feedings more frequently so it's closer to typical breastfeeding?
i am sure you have seen this but jic- http://www.llli.org/docs/00000000000...astfedbaby.pdf

Honestly, at this point, I have no idea what I'm doing anymore. I started out with such good intentions: I nursed LO every two hours during the day and every 4 at night, and continued to do so until she'd got back up to her birth weight. Then I looked for hunger cues and caught them as quickly as I could, while also paying close attention to the clock and monitoring roughly how long she was going between feedings. When she gets hungry now, she wants 6oz. When she was still taking 6oz of formula after long nursing sessions a while ago, I started to really make sure I was pausing frequently and burping her frequently, to check that she actually wanted to eat and wasn't just swallowing what was going into her mouth or needing to burp. I still do that, and she still takes 6oz at a time. I don't know whether I've made her this way, but she likes fewer, larger feeds, rather than more frequent smaller ones.

[@llli*lllmeg]

Wow OK I did not realize you had that huge move. Wow.

When she gets hungry now, she wants 6oz. When she was still taking 6oz of formula after long nursing sessions a while ago, I started to really make sure I was pausing frequently and burping her frequently, to check that she actually wanted to eat and wasn't just swallowing what was going into her mouth or needing to burp. I still do that, and she still takes 6oz at a time. I don't know whether I've made her this way, but she likes fewer, larger feeds, rather than more frequent smaller ones.

If that is how your baby is, that is how she is. Maybe her tummy got stretched out, I really don't know. But I also think it's possible that the "she is only satisfied by 6 ounces" idea is creating a mental block to you more than a real one. (And I assure you, I know you do have and have had real, serious blocks to breastfeeding, don't get me wrong-I understand you have really struggled. I just am not convinced this is a block.) Because 'satisfied' is not the goal-not really. "Enough" is the goal. Right? Babies can be overfed by bottles, this is at least one reason why bottle feeding leads to a higher risk of obesity. Is YOUR baby being overfed? That I don't know. I just know 6 ounces not what a breastfed baby typically gets at each feeding. If it were, breastfeeding moms could routinely nurse their exclusively breasted babies only 5 times a day and all would be fine, and that is not the case.

Anyway, if you thought it would help to try to reduce the per bottle feeding amounts, maybe as well as doing the paced bottle feeding ideas you can try ending the feeding a little sooner- and other comforting techniques applied. Maybe try is incrementally-say, stop at 5.5 ounces at first, then 5, etc, down to about 4 ounces, which would be a normal single feeding amount for this age. I have no idea if this will help, this is kind of a new issue for me, this is really just a thought.

[@llli*acover4422]

Because 'satisfied' is not the goal-not really. "Enough" is the goal. Right? Babies can be overfed by bottles, this is at least one reason why bottle feeding leads to a higher risk of obesity.

Thanks, Meg. I worry about obesity and overfeeding, too, especially since DH's family are all either overweight or obese. How can I tell if I'm overfeeding her, though? Again, this is where I'm struggling because I'm supplementing. I've found a lot of formula resources saying babies need x amount according to their weight or according to their age; but although we don't know LO's weight, she's the size of a six-month old baby; and, again, that doesn't take into account the breastmilk she's having. Then again, the only resources I've found for breastfed babies pretty much say "you can't overfeed a breastfed baby". I know that an indicator is spitting up, but LO has always had reflux and regurgitation issues, so she's always spat up.

I'm seeing the doctor on Monday (I thought it was this week, but I was wrong) so I'll talk to them about LO, and see if we can get her weighed. Maybe I do need to start cutting back a little.

[@llli*lllmeg]

I'm sorry I don't know how to tell if you are overfeeding overall. Also I am not even suggesting you reduce how much overall baby is supplemented because I don't know how much that is or what a formula fed baby should get-I know it's a bit different than breastmilk, (in which case a baby needs about 30 ounces a day typically, some a bit more some a bit less.) But I don't know how different-

I am just sort of wondering, if the problem is that you feel you will never be able to satisfy baby at the breast because she will never get 6 ounces of milk at a time out of your breasts, if it would help to find ways to reduce how much baby is given at a time via bottle. Babies nurse for comfort as well as food, so some of the time she is spending taking more calories in via the bottle may be due to needing that comfort. So I was wondering if slightly reducing how much baby gets per feeding while, as needed, upping the frequency of the feedings, plus offering baby other comforting techniques, would help you feel you could satisfy baby at the breast.

At a feeding, Is baby typically getting either a 6 ounce bottle or the breast? Or both? When a mother is nursing and supplementing, one way to do that is to give some milk/formula via bottle and then nurse. Another way is to nurse and then supplement, although in general the former is preferred. Or you could combine/adjust the order as you wish.

[@llli*evolvingmama]

When a mother is nursing and supplementing, one way to do that is to give some milk/formula via bottle and then nurse. Another way is to nurse and then supplement, although in general the former is preferred. Or you could combine/adjust the order as you wish.

Sorry to jump in here, but I am curious...why is it preferred to give the bottle then the breast if you are nursing/supplementing? I would have thought the other way around was preferred?

[@llli*carm3]

I think it's to calm a hungry baby down a bit with the bottle first so he/she is more likely to be calm enough to latch on? I could be wrong though.