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Thread: so sad...

  1. #51
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    Default Re: so sad...

    hippehpanda - I'm very sorry that you feel this way, and I can promise you that I (and undoubtably all of the other posters here) are not speaking specifically about your personal situation and in no way think any less of the way that you have been able to make breastfeeding work for you. All any single one of us has said is that formula is not an ideal way of dealing with OS/OALD. That's all. If someone can make it work, that's great; however it is not without risks and that needs to be addressed. I don't really understand what is so offensive about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*hippehpanda View Post
    I am done with this site, I am sick of being made to feel like a villain for not breast feeding the 'right way'. For every one person who understands that every situation is different there are ten women who will never understand that sometimes you don't have any other option. I would rather do this completely alone than continue to let all of you make me feel like a bad mother.
    Who here has ever said that there is a right or a wrong way to breastfeed? I have only ever seen it stated that some breast milk is better than none over and over and over again on this forum.

    And who is making you feel like a villain or a bad mother? I can assure you that is not my intention, and I can't imagine that it is anyone else's. Please point to a single post where someone has said anything specifically about your choices?

    Again, you seem to be ignoring everything that I've said to the contrary:

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*phi View Post
    I have absolutely no intention of criticizing or judging your choices. As I said, it is wonderful that you found a way to make breastfeeding work for you. I think that pretty much everyone on these forums would agree that any breast milk is better than none.
    and:

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*phi View Post
    It is absolutely wonderful that you have found a way to make breastfeeding work for you, and there is no problem with using formula to make that happen if you are comfortable doing so and understand the potential risks.
    and:

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*phi View Post
    Please understand that nothing I've said is in any way a statement on any of your choices. No one here is suggesting that you are a failure at all.
    I'm not sure how I can be any more clear that I applaud your ability to make breastfeeding work for you and your baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*hippehpanda View Post
    but frankly with the way so many of you talk about women who can't breast feed exclusively you should know that you aren't doing much for it's image.
    Where have I said anything negative about women who can't exclusively breastfeed? There are a lot of women here who have needed to supplement with formula, and are an absolutely invaluable resource for those women who find themselves in a similar situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*hippehpanda View Post
    I hope that maybe some day that all of you out there who think that the only way to interact with someone who supplements is to tell them what they are doing wrong will realize how terrible and hurtful you are being.
    I never once said that supplementing with formula is "doing wrong". All I ever said is that there are less risky ways of dealing with OS/OALD for other mothers out there who might see this thread and think that formula supplementation is a standard treatment for OS/OALD after reading this:

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*hippehpanda View Post
    I have a very forceful letdown as well, and very low fat content in my son which led to him having awful and painful gas when he was just new. I know most women here frown on the idea, but I supplement him with sensitive stomach formula. That and the eventual decrease and evening out of my milk helped his stomach and his mood so much.
    This suggests that formula will successfully treat fussiness due to OS/OALD. I have never said that this is wrong. Risky, but not wrong. All I said us that there are other, safer methods. Please explain to me how that is "terrible and hurtful". I have absolutely no intention of hurting anyone and am doing my best to be supportive of everyone's decisions that have lead to a successful breastfeeding experience (and I certainly do consider your experience to be successful! I've said as much in every one of my responses to your posts, and you have not once acknowledged my supportive statements). If I am being hurtful, I would like to know how.

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*hippehpanda View Post
    However the internet is vast and I am sure somewhere out there I can find somewhere else to go with my own problems where I won't feel so persecuted, and if not women managed to raise children completely alone in the past who's to say it can't be done in the internet age.
    Again, I am truly sorry that you feel this way. It was never my intention to make you feel persecuted. If someone said that pumping helped them with fussiness due to OS/OALD, I would mention that pumping is risky too. And I have done exactly that in other threads. It's not that I think pumping is "wrong" (just as I don't think formula is "wrong"), but it is risky when you are dealing with OS/OALD (just as formula is risky). Please understand that I am not singling you out; I am just standing by what I know about OS/OALD, having struggled with it for many months myself.

    I really hope that you can see that I am not criticizing you or your choices. I am happy for you. I truthfully think that you should be proud of your accomplishments. I am pretty sure that most of the mamas on these boards feel the same way.
    Last edited by @llli*phi; June 27th, 2012 at 11:39 PM.
    K. Sophia - Mama to my little lactivore, the amazing Mr. X (11/10).

  2. #52
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    Default Re: so sad...

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*happylilbabygirl View Post
    For the most part, I agree with everything that is said here. All she did was state that she has had the same problem and told me what worked for her and everyone jumped on her like she had done something horribly wrong. None of you here may agree with her use of formula but it happens to work for her. There have been people in this thread who have shared their experiences and what worked for them. I can see if she came in and said that only formula works in this situation but she didn't. She still breastfeeds. Maybe not as much as you'd like but she does so I think that her experience is relevant.

    I understand that it's best to nurse without supplementing at all but not everyone is going to choose that route. I'm sure that all of you would agree that getting mostly breastmilk is better than getting none at all. Am I right? Some woman with this problem may come in here one day and read this and try EVERYTHING here (let's pretend that there was no mention of formula) and decide to give up breastfeeding because nothing was working. Had they heard and decided to try one bottle of formula a day, it may have worked and actually saved the breastfeeding relationship.

    These are quotes from a sticky titled "Please Read Before Posting"

    "We invite you all to share your opinions and experiences. Please remember that only accredited LLL Leaders (who have LLL in front of their screen names) are authorized to speak for La Leche League. "

    "Our experiences vary widely, and what works for one family may not be appropriate for another. Thank you for respecting each person's right to make the choices that are right for their own family. LLL supports every mother's right to breastfeed in whatever way works for her, as long as both she and the baby wish to do so, whether that is weeks, months, or until the baby weans naturally. This is an individual decision."

    I think that's self explanatory.

    Thank you for all of those who were helpful in my situation. I am grateful.
    Really? You agree with her ranting and raving about how other people make her feel like a bad mother by stating facts about what is detrimental to breastfeeding dyads AND supply? Like anyone was talking about her specifically? Rather what Phi and Mommal and everyone else here was trying to do was protect YOU and other new mothers who might read this thread in the future from misinformation? Supplementation affects supply. Period. It's a fact. And no one who is working to help you and other new mothers here every day wants that information to get missed. It has nothing to do with what kind of a mother someone is. And NO ONE said anything of the sort. If that is what YOU HEAR, that is on you. I am watching this thread and no one said it anywhere. This thread was full of misinformation when it was opened and by a bunch of very caring supportive members it was supported and guided to solutions that will work for anyone else who comes along and thinks their new born is "addicted to nursing" or that their milk is a problem when really what they are dealing with is a forceful letdown. So yeah it's completely reasonable that when someone comes along and says "supplementation really helped me with my OALD" that someone else comes along and says (TO ANYONE who made read this thread for YEARS TO COME) that factually that is incorrect and that in fact it will cause supply issues.
    Breastfeeding doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. And everyone here knows that. But in the beginning, when your child is working around the clock to get your supply regulated, the more you supplement the more likely you are to lose your supply. And we don't want that.
    Some where up in all those stickies you quoted there is this: "Take what works for you. And leave the rest." I'm pretty sure it's possible to do that without grand exiting and talking trash about the community that is working to support you and your child in your breastfeeding journey. WHEREVER that may be.

    Way too lazy for formula

  3. #53
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    Default Re: so sad...

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*djs.mom View Post
    Really? You agree with her ranting and raving about how other people make her feel like a bad mother by stating facts about what is detrimental to breastfeeding dyads AND supply? Like anyone was talking about her specifically? Rather what Phi and Mommal and everyone else here was trying to do was protect YOU and other new mothers who might read this thread in the future from misinformation? Supplementation affects supply. Period. It's a fact. And no one who is working to help you and other new mothers here every day wants that information to get missed. It has nothing to do with what kind of a mother someone is. And NO ONE said anything of the sort. If that is what YOU HEAR, that is on you. I am watching this thread and no one said it anywhere. This thread was full of misinformation when it was opened and by a bunch of very caring supportive members it was supported and guided to solutions that will work for anyone else who comes along and thinks their new born is "addicted to nursing" or that their milk is a problem when really what they are dealing with is a forceful letdown. So yeah it's completely reasonable that when someone comes along and says "supplementation really helped me with my OALD" that someone else comes along and says (TO ANYONE who made read this thread for YEARS TO COME) that factually that is incorrect and that in fact it will cause supply issues.
    Breastfeeding doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. And everyone here knows that. But in the beginning, when your child is working around the clock to get your supply regulated, the more you supplement the more likely you are to lose your supply. And we don't want that.
    Some where up in all those stickies you quoted there is this: "Take what works for you. And leave the rest." I'm pretty sure it's possible to do that without grand exiting and talking trash about the community that is working to support you and your child in your breastfeeding journey. WHEREVER that may be.

    Supplementation effects supply. Doesn't block nursing also effect supply? I didn't see where anyone mentioned (and go on and on about) the risk of a drop in supply if someone block nurses. For an oversupply issues, I thought the point was to get your supply down a little. I could be wrong. I'm obviously not as knowledgeable as others here. I was under the impression that formula wouldn't be good in this type of situation because of nipple confusion or the baby preferring the flow of a bottle over the breast. So after reading what she wrote about supplementing with formula, someone could have chimed in that that should be used as a last resort because it can effect the nursing relationship due to flow preference or nipple confusion. It could have also been mentioned that while it worked for her, it won't necessarily work for everyone. I do believe that some people commented in a way that was rude. Most people who come to this forum for help are coming for breastfeeding advice, not formula. So while giving formula worked for her, I would assume that someone coming to this forum would try the breastfeeding friendly alternatives before even considering the formula suggestion.

    I don't know who said what because I rarely look at the actual user names (and really it makes no difference to me) and focus on the post itself. There are some people who quoted her who said what was needed in a wonderful way. Others chimed in and said some things that seemed rude and condescending. Those kinds of posts will cause people to turn the other way when they are trying to get help. Some people here don't seem to be very flexible and if someone says something that doesn't agree with them, they say things that are in a hurtful manner. Some mothers who come in here are probably frustrated, exhausted, upset, sad, and struggling with breastfeeding. To then have someone who is rude and condescending reply to their post is probably not the best for their breastfeeding relationship. If this had been my first breastfed child and read through some of these posts before posting my own, I'd leave without ever posting for help.

    I do believe that some of the things said to her (and me) were condescending. I don't care what anyone says or thinks about me. I make my own decisions and own them. I do the best that I can with what I've got (as I believe most mothers do). I don't let judgmental comments hurt me feelings unless it comes from someone who has lived the exact life that I have and is in the exact situation that I am, which obviously isn't going to happen. I hope that others can overcome the condescending and rude comments and find the real advice. That would help a lot more mother start and stick with breastfeeding.

    I did take the advice that worked for me. I left the rest. My response about all of this has nothing to do with that. I have made things work for me and my son without the use of formula and I hope it keep it that way. But I appreciate her thoughts experience, even if I never choose to use it myself.
    Last edited by @llli*happylilbabygirl; June 28th, 2012 at 10:00 AM.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: so sad...

    This is the challenge of any online forum. You can't see a smile, a nod or a wink. You can't see the body language of the poster. You're left with only the words on the screen. Some posters are better writers than others. Some readers are projecting more into what they're reading than others. It's an impossible balancing act, which is why you have to take the entire thread rather than just one or two sentences that make your eye twitch. If the majority of the thread rings true, than that is what you should take from it.

    This is a breast feeding forum. While we talk about many topics, breast feeding is #1 around here. So you have to know your audience when you post. It's not to say that you cannot talk about formula, but you have to expect that this particular community will not be as supportive of formula as other communities. No one here wants a Momma feel like a failure. No one here wants to see a breast feeding relationship end before the Mom and Baby are ready. However, no one in this community is going to 'make' a Momma a failure. Just as this community is not going to 'end' a breast feeding relationship.

    The only one that can make you feel like a failure is you. The only one that can end your breast feeding relationship is you. Please don't blame an entire community of people or an organization as supportive as LLL for one or two comments. I hope you take from this what was intended, not what was implied.

    ETA: I think the reason this particular thread got off to a rough start is because the original, opening thread didn't have a single question in it. Not one question mark. It was all statements with periods at the end. This was the problem, this was how it affected us, this is how I solved it. It was telling us, not asking us. It was throughout the thread that more information came out, that this community was able to come together and offer some insight and offer helpful advice. It was in the process of getting that information, that made things a little sketchy. Not to point blame, but so we can understand where we might have gone off the tracks a bit, so we can learn and not make the same mistakes again.

    In the end, we have a Momma who got great advice and is back on track. Let's celebrate our victories and move on!
    Last edited by @llli*amysmom; June 28th, 2012 at 01:02 PM.
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  5. #55
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    Default Re: so sad...

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*amysmom View Post
    This is the challenge of any online forum. You can't see a smile, a nod or a wink. You can't see the body language of the poster. You're left with only the words on the screen. Some posters are better writers than others. Some readers are projecting more into what they're reading than others. It's an impossible balancing act, which is why you have to take the entire thread rather than just one or two sentences that make your eye twitch. If the majority of the thread rings true, than that is what you should take from it.

    This is a breast feeding forum. While we talk about many topics, breast feeding is #1 around here. So you have to know your audience when you post. It's not to say that you cannot talk about formula, but you have to expect that this particular community will not be as supportive of formula as other communities. No one here wants a Momma feel like a failure. No one here wants to see a breast feeding relationship end before the Mom and Baby are ready. However, no one in this community is going to 'make' a Momma a failure. Just as this community is not going to 'end' a breast feeding relationship.

    The only one that can make you feel like a failure is you. The only one that can end your breast feeding relationship is you. Please don't blame an entire community of people or an organization as supportive as LLL for one or two comments. I hope you take from this what was intended, not what was implied.

    ETA: I think the reason this particular thread got off to a rough start is because the original, opening thread didn't have a single question in it. Not one question mark. It was all statements with periods at the end. This was the problem, this was how it affected us, this is how I solved it. It was telling us, not asking us. It was throughout the thread that more information came out, that this community was able to come together and offer some insight and offer helpful advice. It was in the process of getting that information, that made things a little sketchy. Not to point blame, but so we can understand where we might have gone off the tracks a bit, so we can learn and not make the same mistakes again.

    In the end, we have a Momma who got great advice and is back on track. Let's celebrate our victories and move on!
    I agree with what you are saying completely. I didn't mean to imply that this community causes women to fail at breastfeeding. But meant that if someone is close to quitting and is upset, frustrated and impatient, they may not be able to sift through the condescending posts to get to the actual information. I hope that this doesn't happen often because I would love it if more and more people were able to successfully breastfeed for a year and beyond. I also believe that the only person that can make you feel like a failure is you. I used to think I was but that was due to my own lack of confidence and self-esteem. I guess since I've been there, I have a better understanding of someone who is there and attempt to communicate with them in a way that is beneficial to them (for this site beneficial would deal with breastfeeding).

    Also, I believe you to be correct about the messiness of this thread being mostly because of my original post, which I have apologized for. I did get a lot of great advice, which as I said, I am grateful for. Something else that I got besides the advice was hope and encouragement. There were a couple posts in particular that stand out to me as filled with so much encouragement that I felt even stronger and more determined to make things work with me and my son. I do want to apologize again for causing so much trouble with this thread. I had a couple other questions that I wanted to ask but wasn't sure that I would ask. I may start a couple more threads with those questions (they'll actually have questions in them).

  6. #56
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    Default Re: so sad...

    I also agree with amysmoms post for the most part, I was going to say something similar about the challenge of keeping things civil & supportive on an online forum while trying to impart information, the differences in posting styles, and the challenge LLL in particular has as one lonely voice for breastfeeding support in a world that throws all kinds of suggestions at new moms that are all to often NOT breastfeeding supportive. I would only disagree that the op was the prime issue, I think that was one issue and I also think a few folks (including myself) made assumptions about the op and got a bit 'twitchy.” For all of that, there have also been many apologies, from the op and from other posters.

    Anyway, I would like to address the point about formula, block feeding, and reducing supply brought up here:
    Supplementation effects supply. Doesn't block nursing also effect supply? I didn't see where anyone mentioned (and go on and on about) the risk of a drop in supply if someone block nurses. For an oversupply issues, I thought the point was to get your supply down a little. I could be wrong. I'm obviously not as knowledgeable as others here. I was under the impression that formula wouldn't be good in this type of situation because of nipple confusion or the baby preferring the flow of a bottle over the breast.
    You are completely correct, block nursing is done in order to decrease supply. That is why (imo) it only is appropriate when and if a major oversupply issue that is causing problems and cannot be helped in other ways is happening, which may or may not be so when a mom has forceful letdown. While they are always talked about together, and do often happen at the same time, the fact is ffld can happen independently of a real or ongoing oversupply issue-and also, there are other ways to handle oversupply in many cases without real block feeding (nursing twice or more per side before switching.) After all, even when oversupply is indeed present, it runs the gamut in severity from hardly noticeable to a serious and painful issue for mom and baby.

    I find that block nursing itself is over suggested and misunderstood (not just here, in lots of breastfeeding literature as well.) It is important to remember that even when block feeding is needed, there usually should be no reduction in nursing frequency at all. Nursing very frequently is extremely important in helping reduce the effect on baby of ffld. Formula feedings would be very likely to reduce nursing frequency, thus would probably exacerbate the ffld issues, and that is the first reason why they would in general not be an appropriate suggestion for a mom with ffld or oversupply.

    Then, as you note, there would be the potential added issues of nipple confusion, flow confusion, and eventually, a reduction in supply that was too great for the situation at hand.

    Also the painful affects of ffld on baby, namely the issues of foremilk/hindmilk imbalance, while alarming at the time, are not in any way a long term health concern, unless I am very much mistaken (and if I am I am happy to be corrected.) Barring certain rare diseases and dangerous drug intake by mom, ALL breastmilk is healthy for babies.

    It is true that many moms find formula and/or bottles helpful for one reason or another, at one point or another, and choose to give their babies some formula as part of their journey. It is of course also true that in the rare circumstance, a mom really cannot produce enough breastmilk for her baby and is more or less forced to give formula supplements. I also would agree with you that at times, the option to give baby a bottle and/or formula saves or strengthens a breastfeeding relationship.

    But however much it is needed or wanted, or may even in some circumstances be helpful, formula/bottle feeding also has consequences for the breastfeeding mom and breastfed baby that should be (but often is not) noted when it is suggested by a health care provider. These risks involve not only the tangible but intangibles such as a mother's confidence in herself, her body, and her baby, and her ability/determination to continue trying to breastfeed. The risks are often severe enough that the breastfeeding relationship ends before mother wanted, often a very painful experience for those moms. (At an LLL meeting, these moms will often sob through their stories while their rest of us sit helplessly by, numbed by the realization that this pain was caused primarily by poor advice or poor information about breastfeeding and probably did not have to happen to this mom & baby.)

    If something potentially harmful is suggested by another mom who is kindly trying to offer support and an alternative suggestion, based on personal experience, as happened here, it is the responsibility of others to respectfully provide a different point of view, even in some cases a warning, because this is a site mothers come to not only for support, but to find accurate (as possible) information about breastfeeding, which unfortunately is in short supply online, in much of the medical field, and in the culture at large. This can bepainful, of course, for the mom who thus feels her suggestion is being rejected or feels her post was misunderstood.
    I have had too many moms cry and rage to me over the premature end of their breastfeeding relationship that was brought about by poor breastfeeding advice, to not feel a compulsion to jump in and point out the consequences of some suggestions, no matter how well meant they were or how innocuous they seem, in the hope I can prevent this pain from happening to yet another mom. I get some grief for this, even here, and I also have felt jumped on at times. But I have learned that the vast majority of the posters here mean well, are very passionate, are very supportive, and are very well informed.

  7. #57
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    Default Re: so sad...

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*lllmeg View Post
    If something potentially harmful is suggested by another mom who is kindly trying to offer support and an alternative suggestion, based on personal experience, as happened here, it is the responsibility of others to respectfully provide a different point of view, even in some cases a warning, because this is a site mothers come to not only for support, but to find accurate (as possible) information about breastfeeding, which unfortunately is in short supply online, in much of the medical field, and in the culture at large. This can bepainful, of course, for the mom who thus feels her suggestion is being rejected or feels her post was misunderstood.
    This.
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