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Thread: Trying to stay strong and stick to my guns!

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Trying to stay strong and stick to my guns!

    i think the "schedule=heart of stone" thing comes from teh babywise and CIO books that tell you you can only feed your baby on a schedule (6 am, 9 am, etc). but most people use the word schedule more casually than that. i think that's why LLL tries to call it a "routine" instead.
    DS1 6/7/11
    DS2 10/29/13

    Nursing, pumping, cloth-diapering, babywearing, working professor mama with the awesomest SAHD ever.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Trying to stay strong and stick to my guns!

    Yeah, I think the words get mixed up a little- but I do think that it was meant that denying the baby or keeping the baby from eating until a certain time is like a heart of stone.We all gotta do what works right! I am lucky to be able to be home for a while so Im not too worried about a certain sched yet, but i agree, maybe offer earlier to get that dr appt, that would have helped me instead of rushing to the bathroom in office to nip for the first time all nervous and clutzy!

    On another note, I am so intrigued and concerned for these gals posting about low supply and diminishing supply.I want to encourage them but I have no experience or know what to do! That is why I am fearful at times and get the pump out and pump a little here and there. But it always gives me probs so i've quit and just trusting it will be ok!! dont want to lose my milk so i am praying i cvan always read his cues and offer at all times....what do you all think?

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Trying to stay strong and stick to my guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*barnheartbabe View Post
    I just want to throw this out there: when someone says 'schedule' do you actually ask them what they mean?

    I do a baby-led routine/schedule... Depending which term my brain recalls in the moment, but either way it's still baby led and quite flexible. As much as possible, I plan my day around her/their needs and I'm not above offering a feed early if I absolutely have to make a particular time. That's just life. It's a bit hurtful to see people saying schedule = heart of stone (or other rather harsh terms) when all it may be is a personal definition of two different words.
    But you are still feeding your baby when she is hungry. I don't think that is what anyone is referring to when they talk about schedules. I think everyone here is talking about a parent deciding arbitrarily what time a baby should eat regardless of hunger cues. I do think it is pretty cold to do that. And potentially dangerous.

    However, some babies are more predictable than others, so feeding on demand resembles more of a routine. I think that if you are the kind of person who has a highly organized day, then your baby is more likely to fall into a predictable pattern than if you are someone who flies by the seat of their pants. As long as the baby is fed when she is hungry, then it doesn't matter what the feeding pattern looks like.
    Last edited by @llli*phi; May 31st, 2012 at 09:36 AM.
    K. Sophia - Mama to my little lactivore, the amazing Mr. X (11/10).

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Trying to stay strong and stick to my guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*mommylove View Post
    On another note, I am so intrigued and concerned for these gals posting about low supply and diminishing supply.I want to encourage them but I have no experience or know what to do! That is why I am fearful at times and get the pump out and pump a little here and there. But it always gives me probs so i've quit and just trusting it will be ok!! dont want to lose my milk so i am praying i cvan always read his cues and offer at all times....what do you all think?
    Feed your baby on demand and you should have no reason to worry about supply. Usually when you read about someone having difficulties with low milk supply it is because of external factors (nursing on a schedule, not pumping enough while at work, pumping with a dying pump at work, etc.).

    The human species has survived for the vast majority of it's existence without the use of pumps. There is no reason to think that you will need to use one unless you are separated from your baby for some reason.
    K. Sophia - Mama to my little lactivore, the amazing Mr. X (11/10).

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Trying to stay strong and stick to my guns!

    I think a "schedule" implies set times for something, so it must be adult led/imposed, as opposed to baby-led. (Babies cannot tell time.) That is why is said that one "Puts baby on a schedule." If a mom is following a baby-led “schedule” that is clearly different.

    Since scheduling means imposing the adult’s idea of appropriate eating times/sleep times and length between feedings rather than following the baby's actual hunger/comfort/tired cues, in actuality it will result in artificially delaying feeding times, even if no one calls it "delaying feedings." Is it always death to supply or means baby won't get enough? That depends on many factors. Certainly in the early weeks, many a mom is told to "feed baby every two hours." That is a schedule too, and is also often counterproductive for several reasons, but not usually an issue milk supply-wise (as telling a mom to nurse a newborn every 4 hours would probably be.)

    What LLL suggests is that babies THIS AGE are fed upon the babies request-as long as baby requests AT LEAST 8-12 times a day. That disclaimer about how many times per day is added because some very young, ill or sleepy babies do not cue often enough and consequently do not eat enough. Nursing more than that is common and just fine, even good. Basically the idea is to nurse on cue-aka, on request, and not to scedule. This also accounts for the many times a child will request to nurse for a primary reason other than hunger or thirst, but rather, more for immediate comfort, which is also a vitally important aspect of the nursing relationship, as well as helps ensure mom makes enough and baby gets enough.

    The benefit of cue feeding never really ends. Generally speaking, do babies eventually and naturally fall into eating/sleeping routines? Yes. Do they start nursing less frequently overall and nursing for shorter duration? Yes. (This happens naturally, at a time appropriate for that particular baby-no need to make it happen.) Do these routines change over time, with a baby ramping up requests before and during growth spurts, for example? Yes. Later, can older babies who are growing well be delayed once in a while for adult convenience? Of course. Really that can happen anytime-If my newborn wants to nurse and I am in the shower, he has to wait for a bit. I am not being cruel, I am washing the soap off. Respondiong to your baby need not always mean “drop everything and nurse” but it does mean “your baby needs you so see to him quickly.” The basic suggestion to cue feed never stops as long as baby is relying on breastmilk for all or a good portion of it's nutritional needs. So, for at least a year, and for many kids, longer.

    Even for bottle and formula fed babies, cue feeding is becoming more and more recommended. The idea is that (in general) frequent small meals are healthier than infrequent large meals, and also that is generally healthier to eat when naturally first hungry as opposed to waiting until set mealtimes and then overeating due to being overly hungry. These ideas stay true into adulthood.

    Noticing your child’s routine-for example "Johnnie always naps at about 11 for an hour or so" allows mom to plan her day around baby’s routine. Or even try to adjust it a bit-say, if mom wants to take a baby and me class that ends at 11:30, she can see if she can get baby to nap a tad later. This may or may work depending on the baby!

    LLL and lactation professionals do not suggest cue feeding to make moms tired, frustrated, or trapped. We are not imposing some specifilc parenting philosophy. Cue feeding has been shown to be the easiest & best way to ensure nursing "success" (if we measure success by a mom being able to nurse her child with as few issues as possible for as long as both she and baby want.) Scheduling, especially early on, has been long shown to harm supply and/or cause slow weight gain in many cases. It not only imposes an unwanted, unneeded and possibly unhealthy feeding schedule onto the baby-a human being with their own wants and needs- it also makes parents slaves of feeding routines-totally unnecessarily. There is no proof that feeding/sleep schedules lead to healthier eating habits or sleep habits long term. Certainly some moms with very large milk storage capacity and very good milk making ability "can" put baby on a schedule, even early on, and while it probably reduces their supply, it does not matter much because they start with so much. But does it make life easier for mom? That is debatable. Personally just reading feeding schedules some moms are told to put baby on makes my eyes glaze over. So much easier to just nurse my baby when he wants and not worry about anything else! And I doubt very much being “put on a schedule” is what any baby prefers.

    Feeding schedules also reduces nursing to a feeding method, interchangeable with bottle feeding, which it is not.

    These links have more ideas for those who would like to support breastfeeding moms but maybe do not know how best to do so.

    http://www.llli.org/docs/00000000000...t_partners.pdf
    and http://www.llli.org/docs/00000000000...tgoodsense.pdf

    and these are for new moms: http://www.llli.org/docs/00000000000...needtoknow.pdf and (my personal fave) http://www.llli.org/docs/00000000000...esdontkeep.pdf

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Trying to stay strong and stick to my guns!

    I understand My point, though, is that people need to talk a bit further and not simply get hung up on the word 'schedule'. Lots of people don't know how LLL uses the two words differently. I've had bad reactions from other mothers when I've said that I've got dd2 on a 'schedule' only to see them relax when I add that it's based off her normal cues. I'd hate to see a missed opportunity for educating someone on routines vs schedules just because they said the wrong word. Further, using harsh language against people who do schedule, according to the LLL definition, just puts barriers between them and us... How is there a hope of changing their minds if all the response they see is so unpleasant? Anyhow, I didn't mean to hijack this. It's just a significant concern of mine because I know ladies who've been scared off breastfeeding support groups by similar scenarios.
    Proud Wife to my Kyler 10/02/08
    Proud Mum to our Sarah 07/03/10 and Laura 02/03/12

    Btdt: CS & VBAC
    Enjoying BFing- so much better the 2nd time (thanks lll ladies!)
    I love to with my Beco butterfly 2 and enjoying
    Happy SAHM, & Backyard farmer (I <3 chickens! [hoping to raise sheep for my budding fibre art passion, maybe a cow for a growing cheese habit ])

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Trying to stay strong and stick to my guns!

    But someone pressuring a mama to get her baby onto a "schedule" (which is what this is all about), even if it is baby-led, is NOT okay. I am not a routine kind of person. I like to make decisions on the fly. Not surprisingly, my baby is very unpredictable about when he wants to nurse. When people brought up schedules to me I simply said "no, that won't work for us." That is because, while scheduling my day might have inspired a more schedule-like feeding pattern from my baby, I would have been miserable trying to schedule my own activities and conform to a routine myself. Nursing is between me and my baby, and no one else has the right to interfere with that.

    I also really doubt that the mamas here immediately jump down someone's throat if she mentions her own schedule. I think most of us would ask what she meant by schedule before saying anything else about it. If scheduling is going on and there is a problem like low milk supply or poor weight gain, then the problems associated with scheduling need to be addressed regardless of how difficult it may be to hear.
    K. Sophia - Mama to my little lactivore, the amazing Mr. X (11/10).

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Trying to stay strong and stick to my guns!

    HI there. I am loving this discussion- really learning so much. Dont know how I've gone through life without knowing how amazing nursing a baby is and how its a whole new world to experience!
    I am so glad to get the support and advice from all of you- I am feeling much better about being confident with not being on a strict set of times/schedule to nurse, like only set times. I know from first hand experience that was how we fed my niece with formula, 8 years ago. But I do remember when she would wake up hungry, my sister said forget it, I'm getting her bottle and feed this child.I think her mother insticts kicked in to override her original instructions. She was SO young, we both were inexeperienced, she unfortunately did NOT/could not breastfeed (Has guilt issues to this day about it Another day, another topic-another time- I encourage her to forgive herself and let it GO! She is a great mom- my neice is an absolute joy- little gymnast/ dancer- super smart and such a good sense of humor- she will be my little helper this summer! Sorry to get off the subject)

    I gave gave my mom a copy of the doc posted by llllmeg about grandparents and wrote a special message at the bottom Thanking her and praising her for the support! It has helped me soooo much Thank u!

    Thanks everyone for great advice. I feel so lucky to have found this forum!
    TGIF!!

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Trying to stay strong and stick to my guns!

    Quote Originally Posted by @llli*phi View Post
    Feed your baby on demand and you should have no reason to worry about supply. Usually when you read about someone having difficulties with low milk supply it is because of external factors (nursing on a schedule, not pumping enough while at work, pumping with a dying pump at work, etc.).

    The human species has survived for the vast majority of it's existence without the use of pumps. There is no reason to think that you will need to use one unless you are separated from your baby for some reason.
    And of course low milk supply could be due to an issue with latch, or baby's inefficient feeding, and other non-external factors. But it doesn't sound like your baby has these issues, mommylove - which is awesome! So you shouldn't worry and just go with your instincts (and of course all the great advice you're reading here and elsewhere...) I don't know why people feel the need to comment about it - but I find it is often people of my parents' generation because they were likely taught things about schedules and "spoiling" that we know now aren't true or helpful. I've tried to gently say that it's great that we have so much more research now on the benefits of breastfeeding so that we can make informed choices for our babies. Well, hopefully I've said it that well, anyway.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Trying to stay strong and stick to my guns!

    A safer way of saying is that "she has developed her own routine and we roll with it".

    Something that I tend to say to people when they want to hold DD3 is "She just finished, but she may want round 2 of nursing shortly." That way they're aware of the possible need to return baby for another feeding soon. Even though this is baby #3, I still get people saying "She can't be hungry AGAIN!" I just take my baby. It's water off a ducks back at this point. You'd think with this being the third time around that they'd know how I parent.
    Mommy to our DD1 early bird (34 weeks, 2 days, 7lbs, 14oz)! Oct. 2nd, 2008 Emergency C-Section, Frank Breech, HEALTHY Girl!
    Weaned @ 17 months
    Our DD2 early bird (37 weeks, 3 days, 7lbs, 12oz) Aug. 10th, 2010 Our Successful VBAC, growing like a bad weed!
    Weaned @ 15 months
    Our DD3 early bird (37 weeks, 3 days, 7lbs, 6oz) Feb. 16th, 2012 Our 2nd VBAC and lightening speedy birth!

    Loving being a Mom of 3, 40 months apart!!
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